Deployment #1 - Discussion

**Cursed Shadow** · 08-10-13, 10:40

I'm pretty sure that 'armour breaks' only occur for the damage type which was used to break down that armour in the first place.

Hence why most people use Energy in Regants. Everyone is then contributing to breaking down the same armour, to maximize their Energy damage output.

**Brawl** · 08-10-13, 11:56

Righto talking with some other fellow regulators although some or most of us arent playing nc alot of late busy with RL and other shit, we're coing to do some testing very soon!

Can we not get a bit more direction from you team more specifically what to test, how to present the data, what builds to use etc?

It might just be me but im looking through the data kindly gathered as far and its (no offenece intended) a mess! all kinds of different builds people using buffs, heals, armor of all different types most people testing the same shit.

Lets get organised on this and make the job easier and smoother and get it done?

**Cursed Shadow** · 08-10-13, 12:53

Originally Posted by Brawl

Righto talking with some other fellow regulators although some or most of us arent playing nc alot of late busy with RL and other shit, we're coing to do some testing very soon!

Can we not get a bit more direction from you team more specifically what to test, how to present the data, what builds to use etc?

It might just be me but im looking through the data kindly gathered as far and its (no offenece intended) a mess! all kinds of different builds people using buffs, heals, armor of all different types most people testing the same shit.

Lets get organised on this and make the job easier and smoother and get it done?

I completely resound his comments.

It would be good if GMs can provide a batch of test data, and in response we provide damage logs for the given scenario.

If any unusual behaviour occurs, we can document it separately. Surely this should mostly be about DPM/TL and raw damage figures versus a certain build with balanced resists/extreme resists/no resists.

Example of extreme resists:

Person to be hit: Tank with Full Con split between Fire and Poison. Full Kevlar armor set.
To be hit with: War Gas modded Devourer, F24.88, Cleansing Flame Thrower, using War Gas, Napalm and Standard ammunition.
Person to deal damage: Gentank, should use X imps, X PA and have a total of 252 H-C points and 89 Weapon Lore.
No drugs should be used during the test.

We should have an area, or link where scenarios can be raised, with damage logs attached to those scenarios. (and I don't think the forum is the appropriate place for that)

Please let me know if my logic is flawed here....

**Brawl** · 08-10-13, 14:18

Originally Posted by Cursed Shadow

I completely resound his comments.

It would be good if GMs can provide a batch of test data, and in response we provide damage logs for the given scenario.

If any unusual behaviour occurs, we can document it separately. Surely this should mostly be about DPM/TL and raw damage figures versus a certain build with balanced resists/extreme resists/no resists.

Example of extreme resists:

Person to be hit: Tank with Full Con split between Fire and Poison. Full Kevlar armor set.
To be hit with: War Gas modded Devourer, F24.88, Cleansing Flame Thrower, using War Gas, Napalm and Standard ammunition.
Person to deal damage: Gentank, should use X imps, X PA and have a total of 252 H-C points and 89 Weapon Lore.
No drugs should be used during the test.

We should have an area, or link where scenarios can be raised, with damage logs attached to those scenarios. (and I don't think the forum is the appropriate place for that)

Please let me know if my logic is flawed here....

^
This, im glad it isnt just me that thought we need more of a structured approach to testing.. as far i havent bothered because it is unclear to me exactly what data and in what circumstances is required.

**Doc Holliday** · 08-10-13, 14:58

Originally Posted by Cursed Shadow

Hence why most people use Energy in Regants. Everyone is then contributing to breaking down the same armour, to maximize their Energy damage output.

I truly have no idea what it is your trying to say with this post despite having followed the thread to this point.

However i felt compelled to post but personally speaking, wearing energy armour in regants? First of all are we talking about the PA run or Regants legacy. If its the PA run it makes more sense. If its RL then surely the only reason to do that is because of potential pkers going in and cleaning house on a levelling team......

If im mistaken on this or there is some amazing hidden reason as to why this is different please post up because this sort of thing is important if the balance is to be fixed.

**Cursed Shadow** · 08-10-13, 15:00

Although we now have Sparta, we don't have a sufficient platform for raising feedback with an attached damage log. (which is centralized)
Neither has any particular guidance on how to conduct testing been provided (DO and DO NOT).

For example, duels/real fights are pointless at the moment on Sparta.
The best kind of test would be against a 'dummy' player that meets a certain specification for the given scenario to capture the damage data.
Alternatively, I presume, would be on entirely naked runners with no con points spent whatsoever.

Can we have a bunch of different monsters laid out which have different resistances, huge amounts of health, and don't fight back in a certain 'test' sector. So that we can test the TL/DPM relationship and the new 'Ammo Mods' without having to Multibox.

I summarise the current 'Things to Test' below:

http://forum.neocron-game.com/showth...t-1-Change-Log

1. Weapon DPM (Damage Per Minute) rework based on Tech Level (TL) and removal of all WOC, Rare, Epic, Burst and High-tech bonuses

How do we test this?
Ideally we would like people to see if increasing TL gives rise to a smooth increase in DPM. Testing between the same class would be best and with similar sub-skill levels.

2. Standardisation of clip and ammo pack size, increase in the proportion of secondary damage types for modded weapons (75%) and removal of bonus damage for weapon mods

How do we test this?
Is the proportion too high? Is the impact on Psi-monks and Spies as bad as assumed or even worse? These two classes have to deal with the current piercing based weapons and are generally quite strong against energy based weapons. Energy using players would have a means to deal with those classes, while the piercing using players would have their advantage cut down.

**Cursed Shadow** · 08-10-13, 15:05

Originally Posted by Doc Holliday

I truly have no idea what it is your trying to say with this post despite having followed the thread to this point.

However i felt compelled to post but personally speaking, wearing energy armour in regants? First of all are we talking about the PA run or Regants legacy. If its the PA run it makes more sense. If its RL then surely the only reason to do that is because of potential pkers going in and cleaning house on a levelling team......

If im mistaken on this or there is some amazing hidden reason as to why this is different please post up because this sort of thing is important if the balance is to be fixed.

I meant most people use Energy Modded weapons to break through the Energy 'Armor' of Regants monsters. That is why Energy is commonplace there.

I was simply trying to point this out in order to correct Agent L who seemed to think 'armor breaking' was a general thing which once broken made all damage (regardless of type) higher, whereas there are different 'armor breaks' possible per resistance type: Energy, Fire, Poison, Xray, Force, Piercing.

Based on this, if I break the Regant's boss armor using a TT Epic which is High Voltage modded, it will not improve the damage of an AK against that monster, instead the Piercing resistance of the monster would need to be reduced.

**RogerRamjet** · 08-10-13, 16:03

At this stage surely damage needs to be calculated against a model that has no resists (or maximum resists?) or armour (or full armour?) if we're getting a basic tl/damage curve correct. Without knowing what resist value gives a certain percentage of resists for that particular damage type noting what damage is done is surely pointless?

You'd then be able to test specific damage curves of each weapon against particular levels of resists. There seems to me that there has to be 2 curves (or a line) at play here; one for weapon tl damage, and one of individual weapon damage vs resists. But weapon cap values and resist cap values need to be known.

**Cursed Shadow** · 08-10-13, 16:07

It is *still* impossible to cap weapons.

Hence why they need to dictate setups for testing

**RogerRamjet** · 08-10-13, 16:09

Hnnnnggg bring back weapon caps.

Is that why Tangent Plasma Cannons are out damaging Cursed Souls?

**Cursed Shadow** · 08-10-13, 16:20

That coupled with the fact that the DPM/TL curve flattens out too early.

**Bragi** · 08-10-13, 17:03

It doesn't necessarily matter at this stage what you are shooting, so long as it has equal resist values (and ideally no armour) and you use the same target for all the weapons you are testing.
It also doesn't matter if one group of people use something/someone with one set of resists and another uses a target with different ones.

All we are currently interested in right at this moment is the DPM/TL relationship. When it comes to reworking armour, then we will start to specify values.

Originally Posted by RogerRamjet

Hnnnnggg bring back weapon caps.

Is that why Tangent Plasma Cannons are out damaging Cursed Souls?

We did maths. Our maths were wrong. We will do new maths.

Essentially, the DPM scaling was flatter than the sub-skill effects. Lower TL items are getting a higher DPM increase due to sub-skills than a higher TL weapon gets from being a higher TL.

**Cursed Shadow** · 08-10-13, 17:49

Originally Posted by Bragi

We did maths. Our maths were wrong. We will do new maths.

Essentially, the DPM scaling was flatter than the sub-skill effects. Lower TL items are getting a higher DPM increase due to sub-skills than a higher TL weapon gets from being a higher TL.

I completely understand the intent, and I imagine it currently makes PE very fun to play, but rares do need to have a touch more DPS than non-rares.

Or at least rares should do slightly more damage than a non-rare with the same points spent. (This should be a small amount)

As such perhaps you need to have a line deviation for rares and non-rares. Not sure though.
I think simple quest pickups like BHG should not be doing as much damage as a similar TL rare.

When will this part be patched, so that the testing can commence in the right direction?

**jj dynomite** · 08-10-13, 21:05

Originally Posted by Bragi

It doesn't necessarily matter at this stage what you are shooting, so long as it has equal resist values (and ideally no armour) and you use the same target for all the weapons you are testing.
It also doesn't matter if one group of people use something/someone with one set of resists and another uses a target with different ones.

When we do this testing do we need to post results, or are you logging this server side?

**Bragi** · 08-10-13, 21:51

Originally Posted by Cursed Shadow

I completely understand the intent, and I imagine it currently makes PE very fun to play, but rares do need to have a touch more DPS than non-rares.

Indeed. Though rares will not do more due to being rares, but because they have a higher TL. A new DPM/TL relationship is being worked on.

Originally Posted by jj dynomite

When we do this testing do we need to post results, or are you logging this server side?

Post them here.

We are currently exploring the possibility of a special test NPC.

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