Deployment #1 - Discussion

**Bragi** · 06-10-13, 00:17

With regards to that particular aspect, no; just more testing with other weapon types as mentioned above.

We do still need some more general testing on how the damage mod proportions are affecting PvP and specifically how force modded weapons are or are not affecting Spy and Psi-Monk characters (and how other ammo mods are affecting the other classes for that matter).
We would also like to see roughly how long it now takes for a player to kill another. Although NC has a fast-paced PvP atmosphere, dropping someone else in a matter of seconds does not make much fun for the looser. Intense but slightly longer duration fights in a similar vein to NC1, where several CS clips would be needed to drop a player rather than several bursts, would be better.

**Hell-demon** · 06-10-13, 00:26

So you want me to kill?

Really hope the NSA doesn't misinterpret this...

**Bragi** · 06-10-13, 00:39

Yes

.

Though I mean that on a pure damage basis. Ie. one person shooting someone until they drop and timing it. Ideally with 'victims' set up as PvP characters but that have equal total resistances in all damage types. For the moment we are not interested in 'duel' results.

**Hell-demon** · 06-10-13, 01:15

Originally Posted by Bragi

Yes

.

Though I mean that on a pure damage basis. Ie. one person shooting someone until they drop and timing it. Ideally with 'victims' set up as PvP characters but that have equal total resistances in all damage types. For the moment we are not interested in 'duel' results.

Done. Brammers died by my hand. He did fight back after he felt me nipping at his back.

I started with Devils Grace. It did decent damage but against a WoC power armoured spy it's energy properties and xray were resisted. It did damage but when I switched to zsusun I did more damage. Most people are specced for energy so it's to be expected.

However, a factor with melee that needs to be taken into account is stamina. I had to pop a stam booster after a few swipes with the devils grace. Stamina drain on energy blades is high. Stamina on zsusun is quite low. Peacemaker is quite high. Knuckles drain fast too if I recall. Others are average. So I can swipe and swipe with some weapons but then slow to a crawl. Speed and distance closing is a huge factor for melee users.

Brammers died quite quickly. But he is a spy and has low con. Against a tank I may have been brawling longer and Brammers only managed to get a few shot in on me, but he was running away and only started fighting me once he got into jericho's fortress. He might have killed me...dunno need more "testing".

Melee could be promising in pvp with a few tweaks. Stamina needs to be addressed and possibly damage. 1 vesus 1 it seems fine. Large scale battles not so much. Also a melee will get fucked in a large outpost war because he has to run into groups that may be getting aoe atatcked.

**Bragi** · 06-10-13, 01:19

Stamina use by melee is probably going to be one of the first changes seen that directly affects one class. It's been on our radar since the beginning, so it should pop up soon™.

**Hell-demon** · 06-10-13, 01:24

Originally Posted by Bragi

Stamina use by melee is probably going to be one of the first changes seen that directly affects one class. It's been on our radar since the beginning, so it should pop up soon™.

Are the ath malus on power armour going to be addressed?

please please please.

Also, Santa, make Vein Ripper a bit sharper....

**Agent L** · 06-10-13, 10:00

Reverse loms are great, maybe you could do a drug with +200 to imp,cst,res,rec,rep drug? That'd solve the problem of tradeskillers.

Originally Posted by Hell-demon

So you want me to kill?

Really hope the NSA doesn't misinterpret this...

I'm making a char named President : )

**Hell-demon** · 06-10-13, 11:19

More testing done. By testing I do mean assaulting a randomer in ceres.

Against a PE (I assume) with psi spells, regant armour and a energy weapon, things were a bit trickier. Devils grace did okay but again I had to pop a stamina booster. Zsusun was good but just wasn't doing enough damage. In fact a lot of my melee weapons were actually quite bad.

So I'm doing the pvp dance of neocron and aiming is a serious issue due to the nature of melee. The PE could move out of my lock with ease and I had to move up close and each time he moved I missed. All the while he could dictate range and deal damage while meandering out of my way. I used 3rd person perspective but it was tricky getting my hits to register. My hits that did register were round 30 ish in damage but were out healed soon enough. 1st fight I dealt damage but again he was unaware. 2nd was stalemated and he shot my legs so I did slow down but the one edge using melee has is I don't use ammo and the PE soon ran out of bullets.

3rd fight was pepper park and I felt the crappyness.

Stamina and damage are an issue. The damage on melee is poor especially when you consider the high level of skill points and subskill points involved. With nearly 242 in melee over 100 in agility and max weapon lore on a tank, as well as a couple of points in endurance; I'm doing quite shit.

Also this is using high end melee rares, and high end imps as well as woc armour. All these things require lots of money and time, which all creates a sub par char when you get the stuff. And at the same time you need the best stuff just to remotely compete. I'm using night shade and stuff that wont be readily available for titan players.

Doesn't help that the woc armour was cutting into my ath which slowed me a bit, especially as speed and manoeuvrability are key for melee tanks.

Melee needs a boost to speed, damage, decrease degradation, decrease stamina drain and the skill points needs to give more of a boost. Potential for improving melee is there but we also must factor in the Private Eye. A melee PE (will and still does) suck at melee but there is potential. Problem is getting to the high tier weapons for him. Implants, armour and some weapons need a rethink for the Private Eye, in terms of melee.

**Teal`c** · 06-10-13, 12:36

Better rework the freezer weapons instead of raising the runspeed.

**Torg** · 07-10-13, 11:35

unrelated to melee: i'm happy to read about removing all woc-, tc,- epic boni from weapons, but find it disturbing to get exactly half the damage on the very same weapon in PvE. i know, its balancing in progress, and i'm perfectly sure this is the right way to go.

**Cursed Shadow** · 07-10-13, 11:41

Originally Posted by Hell-demon

More testing done. By testing I do mean assaulting a randomer in ceres.

Doesn't help that the woc armour was cutting into my ath which slowed me a bit, especially as speed and manoeuvrability are key for melee tanks.

Melee needs a boost to speed, damage, decrease degradation, decrease stamina drain and the skill points needs to give more of a boost. Potential for improving melee is there but we also must factor in the Private Eye. A melee PE (will and still does) suck at melee but there is potential. Problem is getting to the high tier weapons for him. Implants, armour and some weapons need a rethink for the Private Eye, in terms of melee.

ATH also factors into damage for Melee:

Lowtech Melee Combat:
Damage (100): Base 10 %, M-C 60 %, WEP 10 %, ATL 20 %
Frequency (100): Base 10 %, M-C 30 %, WEP 40 %, END 20 %
Handling (100): Base 10 %, M-C 20 %, WEP 40 %, AGL 30 %

Hightech Melee Combat:
Damage (100): Base 10 %, M-C 60 %, WEP 10 %, ATL 20 %
Frequency (100): Base 20 %, M-C 20 %, WEP 20 %, T-C 20 %, END 20 %
Handling (110): Base 20 %, M-C 20 %, WEP 20 %, T-C 20 %, AGL 30 %

**nabbl** · 07-10-13, 13:48

Originally Posted by Torg

unrelated to melee: i'm happy to read about removing all woc-, tc,- epic boni from weapons, but find it disturbing to get exactly half the damage on the very same weapon in PvE. i know, its balancing in progress, and i'm perfectly sure this is the right way to go.

I think they completely rebalanced DPM, so it is not only that they removed the boni from weapons. This could lead to having "exactly half the damage". Besides... I always had the feeling to do too much damage. In PVE and PVP. I mean a Grim Chaser dropped down in seconds with a Creed.
Be careful with the modifications though. They did something to the ammunition mods. Energy seems to be more like secondary damage now which could be bad for hunting mobs (e.g. Warbots since they got fire and force resist)

Another thing which I got told by a member of my clan and which I can confirm via my own tests:

A TL84 Tangent Plasma Cannon seems to do a bit more damage than the Cursed Sould for example. That could be due to the fact that you have better damage percentages on the TPC rather than the Cursed Soul. Of course the TPC was artifact, and I don't think that you are able to do that on the retail client but nevertheless the new DPM Curve seems to be a bit too flat regarding Techlevel.
Can anyone confirm this?

**Cursed Shadow** · 07-10-13, 16:39

Sounds intriguing nabbl.

Although this benefits the Low TL Rares, you're right on the fact that Tanks should not be able to use a lower TL weapon and get more out of it than a rare equivalent.

I'll get on the Test Server and try this tonight...

**Bragi** · 07-10-13, 17:55

It's certainly looking like the top end DPM/TL scaling is too shallow.

As for PvE, yes, the damage proportions for ammo mods were significantly altered. The alternate damage type now consists 75% of the damage, rather than the ~10% previously. However, ammo mods no longer have an inherent total damage bonus, so you don't have to mod a weapon if you don't need to. Have fun finding out what works best on your favourite hunting targets!

**Agent L** · 08-10-13, 08:59

Originally Posted by Hell-demon

[...] decrease degradation[...]

How many slot weapon you were using? The difference between 1 and 5 slotter on melee was huge last time I checked.

Originally Posted by nabbl

Of course the TPC was artifact, and I don't think that you are able to do that on the retail client

5 slot, ultimated and no ammo mod = all arti.
And I was wondering why suddenly ppl ask me if I have TPCs in stock... : )

Originally Posted by Bragi

As for PvE [...]

I think many of the current retail problems with PvE is the "armor breaking" phenomenon. Using fire vs xray modded weapon on WB does actually make a difference. But who cares, after few shots mob's armor is broken, it's resists lie flat and it doesn't matter what dmg you deal anymore.
Disclaimer1: the initial diff on WB is not big enough either
Disclaimer2: I am not sure if mobs armor "break" in the same way player armor does, it's just most reasonable explanation I could come up with.

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