Reward Taking out Law Enforcer Chip (LE)

**kane** · 04-12-12, 13:43

Originally Posted by William Antrim

p.s everyone can do recycle missions. It is a wellknown fact that you can just buy the chems and hand them in a profit.

Never done one myself but now I'm more interested :P Could you explain more for someone who has never done any other mission then kill ones?

**Mokoi** · 04-12-12, 14:09

The LEs primary function is the PvP switch.
When you talk about ways of luring more low level players into taking it out, consider what it means: Make low level players opt in to PvP.

You can talk about XP and PvE malus all day (or call it non-LE bonus - same thing), but the question I see unanswered is this: What can we do about PvP, so more low- or mid-level players feel compelled to participate in it?
As long as the role of low-/mid-level chars in PvP is reduced to fragmeat, I dont see any good in forcing or pushing them into PvP.

That said, the open world PvP is such a big part of what constitutes Neocron, that I think it would be very beneficial to not limit it to the endgame.

Disclaimer: the above is my personal opinion only, not to be confused with an official stance on the matter.

**William Antrim** · 04-12-12, 14:25

Player run events for low and mid level nf tournaments. Group your opponents by class and rank. Within ten ranks for example. Overall rank this is. That's what I would do.

Balance weapons so that store bought are powerful enough to provide a chance of fighting against rares and punish the hell out of ganking tonnes of levels below you but reward for killing someone around your level or higher. When I say higher I mean within a level range if your own. I don't wanna see 0/2 putting a cap in the ass of a 60 runner just cos he is a clan mate. The problem of sympathy mules of old would need to be carefully managed to stop exploits too. However all of these suggestions would need to be heavily tested to remove any kind of exploitable actions.

**kane** · 04-12-12, 14:30

Originally Posted by William Antrim

Player run events for low and mid level nf tournaments. Group your opponents by class and rank. Within ten ranks for example. Overall rank this is. That's what I would do.

Balance weapons so that store bought are powerful enough to provide a chance of fighting against rares and punish the hell out of ganking tonnes of levels below you but reward for killing someone around your level or higher. When I say higher I mean within a level range if your own. I don't wanna see 0/2 putting a cap in the ass of a 60 runner just cos he is a clan mate. The problem of sympathy mules of old would need to be carefully managed to stop exploits too. However all of these suggestions would need to be heavily tested to remove any kind of exploitable actions.

TBH they are logged. The Devs should give access to this information to a few trusted long time players to go through them. Then they submit them into the GM's who are bust and probbly did not want to do the grunt work to begin with. They will approve and perm ban both accounts and as well as check logs for IP's and take out any other accounts linked with no questions period.

It's a bit harsh but its how I run my Minecraft server and you have to pay a small fee to actually get on. Where most these guys can just make new accounts and from there we usually look the other way unless they once again break the rules.

Problem is I doubt the devs are going to want to allow witch hunts but for exploits like that it should happen. Everyone knows sympathy mules are illegal and if they don't then its a good reason we don't waste time educating them :P

**Torg** · 04-12-12, 14:39

The problem here is, there's (at least) 2 different groups of players. one group enjoys PvP very much, and wants more action, while the other group enjoys PvP far less, and wants to play mor or less peacefully. so group one demands pushing more people into the action area, while group two refuses any such attempt.
lets make it clear: PvP-players want more PvP, but forcing others into this playstyle doesnt succeed (Neptune...).

So what can we do to encourage more PvP-action? I believe Mokoi has a very good point in this discussion: balancing.

Right now PvP is limited to capped chars with top-end gear. A midrange char wouldnt stand a chance against a skill-maxed woc-kitted fighter. So one thing we could do to bring in more players into PvP would be reducing the boni for TC, WOC and higher TL - a better weapon would still do more damage than one of lower TL, just the difference wouldnt be as big as today. of course nobody wants to loose an advantage, but wouldnt you trade a part of this advantage for a more NC1-style, mixed PvP-situation? NC1 did have a more open PvP-situation with more people taking place in fights, but no woc-gear, no MC5 chips nearly no PAs.

my proposal:
Remove WOC and rare-boni, cut TC-bonus in half (keep some to balance skillpoints in TC vs AGL), remove combat-boni in PAs (make them purely defensive), weaken TL damage progression.
And move city-fighting back to pepper park by safezoning all of plaza, via rosso, TH; bring NPC traders to outzone station and TH to strengthen factions.

**William Antrim** · 04-12-12, 14:41

I think a good solution would be to confer no bonus for a kill on a player with synaptic impairment too perhaps. You can still kill them but you don't get anything for it. This would stop the symp whoring and provide a solid solution to the new measures I suggested.

Edit: I think torg makes some good points too. Removing the offensive bonuses from woc is a great shout. If you're gonna do that tho I think you need to give noobs pa earlier on the proviso they don't their le in. This gives them better defence and encourages them to fight back. I like it. Maybe they could get some pa at 50 or 60 level of main skill rather than 80 odd as it is now. This would be good. Fights would last longer and more people might join in.

**Izeo** · 04-12-12, 14:54

I don't know. Advancing your gear is a lot of fun in PvE. Having a new weapon built and then killing the mobs you have been hunting much faster than before is really satisfying.

This may sound ridiculous, but maybe a possibility is to handle PvP damage completely different than PvE damage. I'm not fully for this idea, but imagine if:
- All weapons in PvE work exactly the same and do the same damage as now.
- However, in PvP, the lowest 'version' of a weapon is exactly 40% as good as the highest 'version' of that same weapon type (including rares).

Example:
Lazar rifle is the lowest 'version' Street Model rifle.
Desperado is the highest 'version' Street Model rifle.

Lazar rifle deals 40 damage a hit to a player.
Desperado deals 100 damage a hit to a player.
(the important part is the ratio - 40% min, 100% max)

The min/max damage window would then be much, much, much tighter. I would probably PvP like crazy if the game worked this way, since I'd only have to hit my enemy a handful more times than they hit me, to compete, using a weapon that is worse than theirs.

(Player armor/resists would also have to work exactly the same as it does now in PvE, but have a similar tightened window for PvP.)

It's a completely ridiculous idea, I know, and I know for a fact this will not happen. But it's kind of fun to imagine, as I really do think this would be a much more fair and enjoyable system.

**Netphreak** · 04-12-12, 16:00

Originally Posted by Izeo

I don't know. Advancing your gear is a lot of fun in PvE. Having a new weapon built and then killing the mobs you have been hunting much faster than before is really satisfying.

This may sound ridiculous, but maybe a possibility is to handle PvP damage completely different than PvE damage. I'm not fully for this idea, but imagine if:
- All weapons in PvE work exactly the same and do the same damage as now.
- However, in PvP, the lowest 'version' of a weapon is exactly 40% as good as the highest 'version' of that same weapon type (including rares).

Example:
Lazar rifle is the lowest 'version' Street Model rifle.
Desperado is the highest 'version' Street Model rifle.

Lazar rifle deals 40 damage a hit to a player.
Desperado deals 100 damage a hit to a player.
(the important part is the ratio - 40% min, 100% max)

The min/max damage window would then be much, much, much tighter. I would probably PvP like crazy if the game worked this way, since I'd only have to hit my enemy a handful more times than they hit me, to compete, using a weapon that is worse than theirs.

(Player armor/resists would also have to work exactly the same as it does now in PvE, but have a similar tightened window for PvP.)

It's a completely ridiculous idea, I know, and I know for a fact this will not happen. But it's kind of fun to imagine, as I really do think this would be a much more fair and enjoyable system.

It always works that way as far as I remember. Players take 1/3 of the damage you will do to a mob, before armor and resists.

There appears to be a concensis on a couple of issues that need to be fixed which will also impact this topic.
First being mobs, their damage, drops, location are all over the place.
Everyone should stand a chance to take on a mob of comparable level not die in 2/3 hits.
More types of mobs need to be able to drop techs to spread the players out across a largely unused game world.

Next is the weapon damage balancing issue that needs to be resolved to even out the playing field somewhat to give everyone 'a chance' at being competitive, thus promoting more pvp and making people less likely to keep LE in until WoC.

**Drachenpaladin** · 04-12-12, 16:16

Another thing that might need a look into is the weapon handling at low levels... Imagine what a pistol duell in Aggicellar would look like: two Chars crouching around each other in circles trying to get their reticles closed some day...

Also to chime in with Mokoi. What is an incentive to PvP as lowbie? Well there is non, not atm and i don't see any possible at all. Other then the small joy about having downed some other poor bastard there is not much reward in PvP. OP-fights are a high and end game content, so you can only brawl around leveling grounds, which is counter productive, or do some baseless fights in the PP or P2 - which is again more like a spare time activity for the guys with the capped chars to bridge the time till the next OPfight. Sparing if you want.

So other then lowbie PvP tournaments i don't see any real incentive. There is just no real reward in it at low level, just costs.

Those who are hellbent on PvP just grind their way up with all sorts of speed level methods.

**Deus Ex Machina** · 04-12-12, 16:43

Originally Posted by Mokoi

You can talk about XP and PvE malus all day (or call it non-LE bonus - same thing)

Sorry, but if its a bonus to one side or a malus to the other might for some look the same, but ultimate its absolutly not the same. People react very differently when its a situation worder like a bonus than when its a situation worder as a malus, even if its the same end result. There are many studies in psychology that support that - so big difference, not same thing.
Thats why people react different when something is taken from them (XP for example) than when others get something (XP for example).

Originally Posted by Mokoi

...but the question I see unanswered is this: What can we do about PvP, so more low- or mid-level players feel compelled to participate in it?
As long as the role of low-/mid-level chars in PvP is reduced to fragmeat, I dont see any good in forcing or pushing them into PvP.

Not force or push - invite - nobody has to.
But I can see what you mean. One thing that came to my mind was another type of LE, as was brought up by someone else somewhere. The function: Only those with a Rating around yours can fight you - and you only them.
Then there might be e.g. three types of LE:
Original LE
Rating +/- 5 LE
Rating +/- 10 LE

Of course that might be a bit hard to code, but at least one could be sure not to be ganked by all those capped people around, and still participate.
But to be honest what I aim at is not getting LEd Player into PvP, but into the world.
I'll be honest - if I am somewhere and see people in local i check the color. If they are LEd - I ignore them most of the time. sometimes I look what they are doing, but most of the time... I have absolutly no reason to aknowledge their existance. They cannot interact with me. Apart from Tradeskillers that is.
I am not sure thats all my reasons, but thats what comes to my mind. A world filled up with LE players feels empty to me.

One example: A few days ago i ran through Plaza 4. Suddenly a non LE name pops up. So I go into search mode, walk cautiously, and then find the player, standing around motionless. Hes from my faction. So I can move on without troubles (I guess)
Some time later I run back again. He is still standing on the same spot. I guess hes afk or something (he wasn't killed by the way with all that standing on the main road through the sector). So a player without LE managed to give me a gaming experience - while I would have just ignored him and ran on if he would have been LEd - For me, thats one main difference.

**Mr. Kassad** · 04-12-12, 17:15

First of all: A 1on1 PvP fight between two capped Runners without a PPU nearby takes how much time? 30 seconds in average? That's pretty damn short if you ask me. Guess how long a mid-level runner will last.

Weapons do a shitload of damage nowadays and resists are almost negligible. There is a rifle (sry forgot the name) that kills a tank in 4 shots flat. With a super duper resist setup it kills you in 5. No wonder people prefer to put those skillpoints in ATL even if they don't clip around.
* Especiall WOC-Weapons need to be nerfed a lot while the rest gets nerfed a bit.
* The impact of resistance on damage reduction needs to be tweaked

Second: We need adequate punishment for being a criminal and shooting friendlies. The SL loss it too damn unimportant and can be replenished way too easy. A complete overhaul of this system needs to be done. This might or might not include some of those suggestions made above about discouraging big chars to kill low-lvl-runners. The exact system is a whole discussion on it's own.

Third: (This is connected to Nr.2) NPC guards need to be a threat again. Brutal freeze and high damage always worked well in the past. Those with negative SL need to feel the consequences of their actions. It's cool to be the bad guy but it's a damn hard life as well. (At least it should be)

**Mokoi** · 04-12-12, 17:41

Originally Posted by Deus Ex Machina

Sorry, but if its a bonus to one side or a malus to the other might for some look the same, but ultimate its absolutly not the same. People react very differently when its a situation worder like a bonus than when its a situation worder as a malus, even if its the same end result. There are many studies in psychology that support that - so big difference, not same thing.
Thats why people react different when something is taken from them (XP for example) than when others get something (XP for example).

This is true when it comes to selling (bad) news to people, you will indeed increase acceptance. In terms of game mechanics and balance it makes little difference (math does not care for emotions).
Not to deviate from the subject by a mile - but consider an economy where you dont give a monetary malus to the 30% in group A (because that would be bad), but you give a bonus to the other 70% in group B (because thats more acceptable). You may say you have not taken away anything from group A, but in the end of the day, the result for group A will still be a very real reduction in consumption power as the global balance shifts. You simply cannot look at each group as though they'd live in a bubble of their own. Thats why to me, it makes no difference if you call it a malus or a bonus - so long players from either group can interact in a single environment, the effect on game mechanics and balancing is identical.

That said, I am curious to see what else you folks have to suggest in terms of making PvP viable again for a broader audience (without dumbing it down of course).
Some of the above suggestions, I think, are heading in a healthy direction.

**Chuck Norris** · 04-12-12, 18:10

Originally Posted by Mokoi

This is true when it comes to selling (bad) news to people, you will indeed increase acceptance. In terms of game mechanics and balance it makes little difference (math does not care for emotions).
Not to deviate from the subject by a mile - but consider an economy where you dont give a monetary malus to the 30% in group A (because that would be bad), but you give a bonus to the other 70% in group B (because thats more acceptable). You may say you have not taken away anything from group A, but in the end of the day, the result for group A will still be a very real reduction in consumption power as the global balance shifts. You simply cannot look at each group as though they'd live in a bubble of their own. Thats why to me, it makes no difference if you call it a malus or a bonus - so long players from either group can interact in a single environment, the effect on game mechanics and balancing is identical.

That said, I am curious to see what else you folks have to suggest in terms of making PvP viable again for a broader audience (without dumbing it down of course).
Some of the above suggestions, I think, are heading in a healthy direction.

Increase effectiveness of armor and resists, someone weapons burn through them immediately.

**Doc Holliday** · 04-12-12, 18:17

Well torg does make some great points here (never thought i would be writing that :P just kidding bro) and yeah the gap between non-rare/rare/woc needs to be shortened. this would serve to bring more fights for sure. skill becomes much more important and could see that balance of power so to speak shifted in a different direction.

Not sure about the nerfing pa thing but i would love to see more classes not so heavily reliant on it just to use a gun. the Low tech pe of old was a classic. he didnt need pa to just use his pe or termi. increasing weapon damage of the poorer weapons would bring more mix to the classes but thats for the balancing project. Yes of course this promotes ganking of lower runners but once that LE is out runners can join clans anyway and then have the clan back them up. Like they used to. It could certainly mean a lot more to clans having to protect their runners and encouraging this is a good thing.

I strongly support the idea of the bonus being provided to a non le runner as you would find more runners removing the LE and engaging in pvp as mentioned. it may not always be against a runner of their level but as mentioned above its a choice. they are not forced to do it.

Everyone loves free con xp too

**Netphreak** · 04-12-12, 19:14

I think it's going to be an awful lot of work, but ideally weapon damage probably needs to be balanced at the time when they balance mobs too. As weapon damage affects both the PvP and PvE aspects of the game.

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