Removed! - Lets keep things on topic shall we?
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Removed! - Lets keep things on topic shall we?
[Edited - Let's stick to the topic]
TankJr
I have just read through the last few posts of yours and I think what you are asking for is a set of milestones that you can give advice to new players on for overall guidance in their setups rather than actual precise values like 10 points here and 5 points there etc.
The problem is that I think what you are asking for is impossible to give right now. If new players come into the game as it stands there are two very different versions of nc - retail (the old school way) and the new Test Server way (the future of NC hopefully).
As the second one is COMPLETELY open ended at the moment and nobody really knows what the future will look like nobody can really help you with either precise statistics or even the generic milestones it seems like you are asking for. A lot of things are still subject to potential change.
When the balancing is done and the new skills values/items/whatever else changes has been set into stone then player guides will appear. People will be eager to write up this stuff to help the new guys, there have been some great ones down the years.
As for now all I can suggest is that you ask these new players to learn the game AS IT STANDS right now as plenty of people can help with questions there but tell them to expect a lot of things to change in the future. PVE will always be PVE but the pvp end of the game should theoretically be much easier for them to get a grasp of by just playing around with set ups on the test server.
If you want to get involved and test then you can do, you do not need to be an uber pvp god to stand still and shoot another guy in the face (also standing still) and submit those values (the little red numbers that pop up) on a spreadsheet to the devs. If the new people want to get involved then they can do too, bearing in mind that their experiences are of as much value as everyone elses in this respect.
The thing that you have to understand is, as Dasore hinted at, when it comes to defining classes based on the feel of them in live fighting environments their lack of experience will make things difficult for them to contribute. Nobody here should ever say someone elses opinion is invalid, many will disagree but at the end of the day no opinion is wrong, it is simply an opinion. Only facts can be wrong but when these facts and opinions get crossed over you get arguments.
There will probably be plenty more arguments yet but that is all in the nature of testing this game and everyone here understands that. It was never going to be a nice little tea party when adult males play a game with guns involved.
But yeah feel free to test away to your hearts content but please do understand that at this time your request just cannot really be filled.
Tanks for your Adivse, but i say it again. Mate, i dont want any Helps for Setups or 10 Points to set on this and 5 on that - no !
If a Noob opens Nskill for example and tries to build his pic, ..
- he doesnt knows the most possible runspeed which u can get, the Maximum which u maybe have to reach.
Why should i spend 150 to Agylity when this thing is got fixed ? Simple or ? I can read in the past Patchnotes what changed but how should he know when a limit is reached ? And why can^t Dev explain or say this ? I thought they limited the runspeed on retail since Terra, so there must be an answer or something like that which says - People if u spend more then 130 on Agylity, it doesnt maybe take 4% on Performance instead of setting 120 Agyilty and having 100% ??! where is the Problem ? and you Guys say, no there is no Answer for this - sorry have to laugh about.
I dont want to know how many Ressists my Character has to reach,or any other Settings. Those things are simple questions aka Basics and i thought there is maybe an announcement which was placed for the runner since some changes did changed or took effect now.
Another Thing, noob opens his Damage Logs, he can see that Type of Ammo which effects tbc, a lot of numbers and Counts.
How can he know the Limit of this Calculation ? beginning and ending of this Count ? These are Basics for me, if i want to get deeper in this buizz i think its necesary to know this. How should i read this corectly out to talk about whats to much or something ?
That no one wants to speak about his Setups, normaly .. i wouldn^t too.
Dont think to complicated - its simple what i ask for. and if u ask someone, they dumb or speak shit - like always hapens here.
A handfulf of People maybe, not more.
Thanks for Info, back to Topic - its okay for me ...
Just trying out, if Noob is asking me why his allover Ressists doesnt climb up to 100 % in nskill - i can^t asnwer him, sorry for bringing this shit back again.
I have started this post about four separate times now and I still cant make out what you are actually trying to say.
You are worrying about some other third party who may or may not have a clue about how the game works and you are having a stress about problems that some other generic individual may or may not have? Youre asking for these solutions for the "noobs" but you acknowledge that the game is in a state of flux here and is subject to massive changes that can and will affect ALL of the gameplay mechanics.
You want some form of direction and clarification on stuff that isnt even yet fully decided and you dont want this for yourself but you want it for some faceless, nameless noobs that youve met in the game? There are about 100 people playing currently at peak and you have managed to find the only genuine noobs and they havent yet made it to the forum so youre arguing for them? If you want help with the current game go to techhaven.org it has all the resources as up to date as you are going to get right now.
Thats how your post reads to me anyway. I am not sure if youre asking for help or making suggestions. I am trying to discern which it is but as previously stated there is no way you will get answers to these questions yet. They havent been decided. It just kind of rambles on a lot and is difficult to follow. Can you possibly just use really short statements saying "I would like to know what the runspeed cap is?" and "I would like to know what the resist cap is?"
This thread is about the latest patches being installed to the test server and therefore it assumes some form of experience and prior knowledge of the game in order to form a baseline understanding and therefore comment accurately on the changes and their effect on the game.
what you keep asking for is stuff that should go in an entirely different forum, the new player forum - failing that if you are fluent in german then perhaps it might be better being posted in the german half of the forum as you might be able to get your point across better there?
I am trying my best to be as clear as I can but it doesnt seem like you even read my previous post tbh.
Sorry Guys, keep your Discussion going in.
I recieved a private Message with listed Details which i call ' Basiscs'
The Post is archieved in the Forums (2006)
Specific Listings about each Character, for example how Damage, Aim Speed, Aim Precision, tbc got calculated.
And that we have an Eficency of 1% up from 100 Agyility when spending more Points on it.
Have a nice Weekend and maybe Delete my Postings to go on.
I know that this Thread is about Balancing and i am reading it cafefully.
I understand what the Devs actually want, how to test same classes or different classes shooting 1v1
..and so on.
For me its important to have the Knowledge on Basics to get deeper in those Testings to understand it better.
Thank you all !
I got The Answers for my Question..
Now if you might want to share that post so we all could be enlightened...
Sorry, Mate ..back to Topic.
Since i started to ask for some Knowledge what i cal *Basics* the Main Discussion stopped.
Or like Kame worte, crashing the whole Thread ;-P
At least, if someone is able to send me an Redirect or pacific instructions how to convert, calculate all the Numbers of the
*Damage Log* it will be helpful.
Thanks, have a nice Weekend !
This thread is beyond tldr, it needs to fork.
i m not sure what we should test on the testserver? i was in the shooting range now and you kill people with 2 shots with higher tl weapons. if the damage is reduced so you could do a normal fight you could maybe test the balancing.
Just test the damage per shot in the shooting range. Make sure you have all of your personal stats, weapon quality, ammo mods and the like logged when your report.Quote:
Originally Posted by brand
Pretty nice last patches. I like new Wyatt Earp and Backup Gun.
DoTs looks like broken same as injectors, even firemobs deals pretty big damage via DoT. So, I dont know what we will got in the end for DoT-based weapons.
Shootrange room is not a good place. First it is indoor. Outdoor's range calculations has different mechanic. Secondly, mobs in the room moves through "walls" and this is annoying.
Something I cant understand. I did tests in DoY sector 5, sidestreet. And tests showed that DPS/DPM of Judge and Slasher less then in Shootrange room. I used xray ammo mod for all pistols. And Judge with Slasher looks bad there. While Backup Gun, Liberator and TT epic pistol took first places. Anyway, on firemobs Judge, Slasher doing misses and damage that they deal still less. I suppose you may look at them closer. May be I am wrong and dont know something...
I saw that you changed MRL shot frequency too. Its good decision and I like it.
I will try to complete some tests in PvP later.
In general, I like last patches. Thank you!
----
UPDATE
Suggestion I: put in shootrange room mobs which people know. Or create another room. Because I cant even say damage increased or decreased. I know that damage weapons deals on Titan on some mobs, and in shootrange room unknown mobs. How to compare? Or what we need to compare? In description of weapon we may see what tyoe of damage and how many damages it deals already.
Suggestion II: If first suggestion can not be completed when open all (or 50%+) OPs. Its not funny run from one point 3-5 sectors to complete tests in another sector. There are not so many people who make tests in OP fight. And if they are doing this they could close OP for that moment.
@Walkman - I'm currently doing some investigation on nanites. Can you let me know which nanite injector tool you are using, and which nanites you have tested with. Also let me know your character class, INT, IMP and T-C skills please. If you are using the personal injector tools, let me know your CON and HLT skills as well please.Quote:
Originally Posted by walkman
Nickname: Walkman
Class: PE, full capped with woc dex +3
INT: 59 (-1)
STR: 58 (-2)
CON: 66 (+1)
DEX: 101 (+21)
PSI: 35
Brain: SSP, CCP, SFC and CCC v1.2
Pistol eye 0.3
Strengten heart 2.0
Recycke glove
Exp. reflexbooster v2.4
Injectors: TL 16 and TL 40
Health: 75 (+13)
P-C: 222 (+85)
T-C: 89 (+47)
AGI: 76 (+26)
Recycle: 24 (+13)
The issue with injectors written in their description. Numbers are very big. In first time TL 40 deals around -40 hp and then insta-heal to maximum. They are stays same from patch T186. It is good to have such insta-heal tool for testing purposes :)
You may watch at changes on firemobs. Where you see Doomreapers those through at you 2 dots and in next seconds you lose half life? Seriosly, on Titan doomreapers cant cause such damage. I am wearing full inq set + light fire resi belt. Fire stats: 130/163/136.
And now I tested Hoppers. Well, on Titan I can survive with 3-4 DoT from Hopper. What is happenning on Veedena? Two DoT took 600+ hp for same setup. Own fire resistance is 50.
Thank you.
Jump and fall == insta-death. Before my previous post this was not an issue....
---
Titan:
DAMAGEINFO - Time 5629.471 Damage (Walkman): WeaponID 620, DmgID 2240, DmgFac 0.670, Energy 2.680, Effect 26.264, Height 57.000
DamageCause: Injector!
DamageType: Direct!
INS - PCR: 2.680
DOT - FUL: 13.400, DoT: 4030, Duration: 30.000
DOT - FUL: 12.864, DoT: 4037, Duration: 30.000
DAMAGEINFO - Time 5631.875 Damage (HOPPER): WeaponID 0, DmgID 1701, DmgFac 52.910, Energy 52.910, Effect 0.000, Height 0.000
DamageCause: No weapon!
DamageType: Over Time!
INS - FIR: 52.910
DAMAGEINFO - Time 5632.125 Damage (Walkman): WeaponID 620, DmgID 2250, DmgFac -12.850, Energy -12.850, Effect 0.000, Height 75.000
DamageCause: Injector!
DamageType: Direct!
INS - FUL: -12.850
Veedena:
DAMAGEINFO - Time 6424.116 Damage (Walkman): WeaponID 620, DmgID 2240, DmgFac 1.300, Energy 130.000, Effect 50.960, Height 57.000
DamageCause: Injector!
DamageType: Direct!
INS - PCR: 130.000
DOT - FUL: 26.000, DoT: 4030, Duration: 30.000
DOT - FUL: 24.960, DoT: 4037, Duration: 30.000
DAMAGEINFO - Time 6426.303 Damage (HOPPER): WeaponID 0, DmgID 1701, DmgFac 1.008, Energy 100.800, Effect 0.000, Height 0.000
DamageCause: No weapon!
DamageType: Over Time!
INS - FIR: 100.800
DAMAGEINFO - Time 6426.387 Damage (Walkman): WeaponID 620, DmgID 2250, DmgFac -24.950, Energy -2495.000, Effect 0.000, Height 21.000
DamageCause: Injector!
DamageType: Direct!
INS - FUL: -2495.000
And fall on Veedena:
DAMAGEINFO - Time 6633.367 Damage (Walkman): WeaponID 0, DmgID 2000, DmgFac 39.226, Energy 3922.644, Effect 0.000, Height 0.000
DamageCause: No weapon!
DamageType: Collision!
INS - FUL: 3922.644
DAMAGEINFO - Log object successfully destroyed!
I had review my vision situation with DoTs. I suppose what we have in current time on Titan is acceptable behavior for current, so called "broken", DoT system. We no need to warry about mobs on Veedena and focus on PvP part. After that you should to able to adjust damage for mobs. Because, when DoT works as we wish then mobs, of course. deals a lot of damages. It is ok.
Also, may be I am wrong here and I need to check my idea. Perhaps, DoT bypass armor and stat resistance. If you are sure that is wrong, then, seems to be we need to decrease DoT damage to acceptable levels. And everything will be fine.
Next. About Steiner 1.0 and stun effect. In future are you plan to add correct behavior for this effect? I will be glad to see its re-worked. I see this like that. Suppose effect should decrease char stats, such ATH/AGI. And if this effect would be stackable, then with more stacks the player char will move slower and slower. This is all that we (at least me) expect. Of course some mobs will cause this effect too. As I know warbots throw shock effect, and this is why warbies so slow.
I think no one believed that we will be so close to right behavior of weapons. DoT it is not exception, we just was not prepared to see it working almostly perfect. Also you should note, that DoT is damage which does not requires any skills except run far away. The hunter need just cover in safe place and wait while victim is dying. Of course, victim should use antidotes and antishockers. And all these tools already is present in game. So, we going on right way.
And do not be angry if I said obvious things.
Thanks!
P.S. Please fix fall damage. It is not fun.
THe main problem still with APUs is the buggyness of the new spell no-miss aiming. It seems if you fire too fast (clicking again right when it's ready to cast another), it'll bug & take 2 - 2.5X the normal cast time. Like a long fizzle, except it actually damages at the end. Problem is it happens alot.
T#191 is live! Shields and heals have been rebalanced. Also the overall damage output has been lowered by a factor of ~ 2. Please focus testing on PvP in general and keep in mind: we dont have pure DoT weapons. All weapons which deal DoT usually only deal a minor DoT effect. Read their descriptions carefully!
So i just made a character on the testserver. Twilight Guardian because.. fun and stuff..
I like the transportation right out of the MC5 to plaza 1. Yet i forgot to take the generep there, marched for the SUPER HARD MISSION guy and got killed by the rat. I haven't got killed by a rat in years.
Alright, back at the canyon (remember - no generep taken at plaza 1, how unthoughtful of me :D), i jumped down towards the next staircase like i always did. Then i died.
Alright, back at the canyon i took the stairs down to the generep, activated that stuff, jumped in the railing of the stairway to have a better look down, tripped and then i died.
Alright, back at the canyon i looked for an exit to plaza 1, now tired of looking and making another character (no to remember to get plaza 1 generep :D).
When did the death-by-fall be activated again?
You may have some problems with your code regarding the checks on how much damage a runner will take in an fall. I just slided like 2 metres in the wastelands and ended up dead (tank, nearly capped).
What i do like for now is the balance aligned to the techlevel of the items, which will hopefully give a push to pistols and melee again. I would propose to set the alignment free with the next retail patch.
Regardless the overall damage output of a tank is now 1 / 3rd of what it has been on retail:
Creed 32.864 -> 11562
SP CA Plasma Wave 28.500 -> 10.790
With that in mind, do not forget to balance PVE also. Make them do less damage if you want to keep their health (which has been greatly pushed when BDoY arrived as far as i remember).
For PVP balance the TL-alignment is alright.. yes there is some need of minor adjustments for resist skills and armor - i just do not think you will be able to do that from the minimal data you get from the testserver.
Keep up the good work though, i like what i've seen so far :)
We are aware of the problem; Due to some background changes the base fall damage value was increased. It should be fixed before anything hits retail.Quote:
Originally Posted by lawless
We can adjust PvE damage and EvP damage quite easily. We aim to look at PvE in more detail at a later stage, PvP being the priority, but a 'temporary' fix could be put in place.Quote:
With that in mind, do not forget to balance PVE also. Make them do less damage if you want to keep their health (which has been greatly pushed when BDoY arrived as far as i remember).
Our current focus is on the shape of the Proportional DPM curve and if what we have come up with fits with what is experienced ingame.Quote:
there is some need of minor adjustments for resist skills and armor - i just do not think you will be able to do that from the minimal data you get from the testserver.
As I mentioned in my previous post about the different stages of the process, some aspects of the game are deeply flawed; armour, resists and the implant system are not conducive to variety or balance.
All of those will be addressed at some point.
okay so first impressions of the new patch:
-PPU shields: We were killing a tank with a Creed, with ppu shields and without. It always took the same amount of shots. 8.. Hc 230 TC 110, the victim got 80 Energy resist and 186 Armor Energy, creed was high voltage. So the Ppu shields dont change anything on the dmg taken by high tl weapons, slasher/disruptor/creed. Thats what we first thought of. After a bit of testing it seems like deflector and protector work, but the absorber isnt. Both lower the dmg taken by about 25%
-Healing light did 2x40 on a tank without shields/resists/armor, and the first love did 160 a burst, disruptor was 500 a burst. So sth wrong with the dpm?
-Tl10 Pe casted heal heals as much as a holy of a ppu
-The Dmg a stack weapon does seems to be right 280 on hit of devourer and 70 a tick, with cerosion ammo (78 fire/22 for 16 secs)
After a bit of testing everyone still feels like the dmg is still way to high, honestly the low-midrareweapons doing okay, just need to be lowered a bit, but the high tl onces, fl, creed, disruptor do way too much. Strange is that the healing light for example doesnt really do dmg...
Well on the "Proportional DPM/TL" :
I still completely disagree with that idea. It's bad, and the time I HAVE spent today with my clanmates on Vedeena proved what I've been saying this whole time :
WERE ALL STILL GOING TO USE THE MOST DAMAGING WEAPONS IN THE RANGE FOR PVP !!!
I mean it's not rocket science, people are competitive about pvp and the fact that lower TL = less damage speaks by itself. That is if you have the ability to reason in a logical and practical way. Not everything in life is as good as appears on paper.
Also the way it felt in early NC2/NC1 was : TL of weapons was mainly used to limit access to weapons based on implant setup/character class.
On PPU shields :
I dont even why this is being brought up in focus at this point. You guys showed us a timeline and youre supposed to focus on weapons yet you leave the weapons characteristics intact and then go ahead and adjust PPU modules. You obviously created an issue with your module adjustment tooling system and are too stubborn to reconsider and are trying to patch it left and right (fall damage, ppu modules, stack damage... lol EVERYTHING damage realated).
Bugs :
-The PE cast TL10 heals is healing as much as a PPU cast foreign holy heal.
-The blue shield doesnt work at all (no damage reduction).
-Also stupid design features like heal bonus on headshot heal is still effective.
Last thoughts :
Why do you guys not look at the overall features instead of focus on raw numbers (which you still get wrong, because you dont analyse properly in the first place) ??
You seem to be trying to adjust all modules (ppu spells, weapons, etc) with the same tool, in one go, based on TL.
Then you tell us you only want to focus on weapons, but you adjust/tweak ALL MODULES (including PPU modules, stack damage, fall damage) ???
Wrong approach, wrong tool, hence the weird unexpected in-game behavior and then the resulting waste of time.
kame, may i remind you that at least serious parts of Neocron are spagetti code from hell? development of this game was started in another millennium (literally. before 2000) and has been reworked numerous times by different coders since. so changing one thing can get you several unexpected results. i dont believe the current dev team isnt capable of solving those problems. but, you know, its a jungle out there. thats why all this tweaking and analyzing is happening on a copy (vedeena), not on the original (titan) server. if everything goes boom on Ved, we still can unplug it and keep partying like its 1999 (or 2005, sortof).
Yay! Reason! Here! In this forum!Quote:
Originally Posted by Torg
Anyway. Roughly seven to nine years have been invested into borking Neocrons code. Its not gonna be untangled in just one or two. Whether code wise nor mechanics wise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drachenpaladin
I dont code a lot of things in life, but if I had a whacky code to work with, last thing I would do is implement a function that interracts on a lot of aspects all at once. Common sense in my opinion.
/Edit
All this talk about how shit the code is do not excuse the fact that were going at it the wrong way right now.
Why not simply adjust every item from TL75 and up manually ??
Youre still going to have to re-adjust them no matter what the Porportional DPM/TL curve is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torg
Now this.
Ill agree with you for once Torg and go ahead and say that I dont believe the dev team is capable of solving those problems either.
It doesnt matter one bit how old or how tangled the code is. What you need to understand is that the way we go about it right now is wrong. I much favor small, incremental and controlled changes instead of a "tool" that dynamically arranges every aspects of weapons/damage parameters based on a given expected output.
They are creating more issues and raising more questions with the current approach.
Example : they wanted to focus on weapons, but now they have to put time on shields, heals, fall damage, stack damage and possibly more.
Reason : wrong approach to the current problem. That "adjust all in one go" mentality...
Fix :
[Edited]
Im gonna go out on a limb and say this : Krazor, Giga and Mr Trip altogether can probably fix PVP balance in Neocron way better than the current dev team.
Unfortunately I have fought against hackers in neocron who could change 1 gun to what they wanted....why can't the dev team do this too?
going by what I know and have seen of either parties work, I must strongly disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kame
they could sticky-tape-hot-glue-adjust PvP to a workable state, probably yes.
the NST would be able to do the same if they wanted, but they chose not to (personally, I believe it might have been worth the distraction just to ease the pain for players while the long term balancing changes are being worked on behind the scenes).
they have chosen to fix the underlying mechanics, which is more in line with their announced agenda of putting effort in long-term solutions, rather than quick fixes. I don't want to put words in the mouth of the NST, but I believe they looked at the 2.2 project and the intention behind those game-breaking changes - to create robust, future proof balance mechanics that make it easier to introduce new items and tweak balance without fear of unwanted side effects.
as much as I stand behind this agenda in general, I very much fear that the amount of work required to pull this off is beyond what the NST can contribute and I don't think that crowdsourcing the effort will work, due to the complexities involved.
I really don't believe that the people working on the task are the problem.
There are extremely(!) capable tech guys and extremely committed contributors among them.
I fear that the task, as has been set by those people, could just be too grand.
I fully agree with that there.Quote:
Originally Posted by aKe`cj
I also agree that the dev team have the talent to get us where we want to go. They have proven their talents with previous patches, by fixing decade old bugs and annoyances.
However I have a lot of doubts as to the approach taken to balancing, as it sounds exactly the same as the 2.2 balancing, and it failed so miserably.