1. #1

    Default Your input on: Bone Enforcements

    Dem bones dem bones, dem high tech implant bones.

    There's lots of variety when it comes to implants and armour in NC, but not much when it comes to the bones.

    On Vedeena the 'base-line' set for end-game is the Advanced series, though individually a little weak the whole set provides: 31 force, 8 pierce, 8 end, 5 melee, 6 transport and 4 agl. That's 62 skill points.
    Is that enough? Some brain implants give nearly as much alone, but what about power creep? Should there be Tier 3 bones and if so how would you deal with the requirements on Spies and Monks?

    In addition to those, the gamma and experimental bones give a larger boost but reduce something else (though looking at the former, the downside might be a bit high).

    Aside from that, we really only have the Bat Queen chest and arm (which are currently pretty much tank-only items).

    What about a full Bat Queen set?
    What about bones from other boss mobs like the Apparition, Shaman and Viper King?
    Rare bones?

    What about the hand slot? Aside from psi and tradeskill gloves, what else could we have?

    Do they even have to be bones? What about exoskeleton stuff.

    PvP, PvE, tradeskill; Have at it chummers.
    Bragi
    Balancing
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  2. #2
    Bitter Veteran Hell-demon's Avatar
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    Default

    Hand bones?

    Hhhhhmmmm

    Maybe reinforced knuckles that give extra melee damage. Anti-shake stabilizers for improved accuracy. Ultra fast fingers for hacking?
    I’m going to become rich and famous after I invent a device that allows you to stab people in the face over the internet.

  3. #3

    Default

    Hey Bragi

    Please scrap the maluses on Bones on Veedena, they are counterproductive if you want people to have multiple valuable choices.

    My Proposition:

    Default Sets still available with integer Values:

    Low Tech

    TL10
    Headbone
    STR:10
    FOR:+4
    PSR:+3
    From: Cryton


    TL15
    Chest
    STR:15
    FOR:+4
    END:+5
    From: Cryton


    TL6
    Arm Enforcement
    STR:6
    M-C:+3
    FOR:+4
    From: Cryton


    TL12
    Leg Enforcement
    STR:12
    TRA:+3
    FOR:+5
    From: Cryton


    TL4
    Foot Enforcement
    STR:4
    FOR+3
    AGL:+3
    From: Cryton


    BioTech Advanced

    TL30
    Advanced Headbone
    STR:30
    FOR:+8
    PSR:+6
    From: Cryton


    TL35
    Advanced Chest Enforcement
    STR:35
    FOR:+8
    END:+10
    From: Cryton


    TL26
    Advanced Arm Enforcement
    STR:26
    M-C:+6
    FOR:+8
    From: Cryton


    TL32
    Advanced Leg Enforcement
    STR:32
    TRA:+6
    FOR:+10
    From: Cryton


    TL24
    Advanced Foot Enforcement
    STR:24
    FOR:+6
    AGL:+6
    From: Cryton


    BioTech Experimental

    TL50
    Experimental Headbone
    STR:50
    FOR:+12
    PSR:+9
    From: FA FSM


    TL55
    Experimental Chest
    STR:55
    FOR:+12
    END:+14
    From: FA FSM


    TL46
    Experimental Arm Enforcement
    STR:46
    M-C:+9
    FOR:+12
    From: FA FSM


    TL52
    Experimental Leg Enforcement
    STR:52
    TRA:+9
    FOR:+14
    From: FA FSM


    TL44
    Experimental Foot Enforcement
    STR:44
    FOR:+9
    AGL:+9
    From: FA FSM


    BioTech Antigamma

    TL28
    Anitgamma Headbone
    STR:28
    XRR:+8
    PSR:+5
    From: FA


    TL33
    Antigamma Chest
    STR:33
    END:+9
    XRR:+6
    From: FA


    TL25
    Antigamma Arm Enforcement
    STR:25
    M-C:+5
    XRR:+8
    From: FA


    TL32
    Antigamma Leg Enforcement
    STR:32
    TRA:+6
    XRR:+8
    From: FA


    TL23
    Antigamma Foot Enforcement
    STR:23
    XRR:+6
    AGL:+6
    From: FA


    Bat Queen Set

    gets completed by 2 Viper Queen and 1 Genotoxic Nightmare drops

    TL75
    Nightmare Headbone
    STR:75
    FOR:+20
    PSR:+10
    From: Genotoxic Nightmare Drop


    TL80
    Bat Queen Chest Enforcement
    STR:80
    FOR:+18
    END:+12
    From: Bat Queen Drop


    TL76
    Bat Queen Arm Enforcement
    STR:76
    M-C:+12
    FOR:+18
    From: Bat Queen Drop


    TL78
    Viper Queen Leg Enforcement
    STR:78
    TRA:+14
    FOR:+16
    From: Viper Queen Drop


    TL72
    Viper Queen Foot Enforcement
    STR:72
    FOR:+18
    AGL:+12
    From: Viper Queen Drop


    Proposed Rare Bones:

    Alle are attained from Rare Parts

    Headbones

    correlate to INT/PSI

    INT

    Hacking

    TL:80
    NCPD 1-w1n System Bypass Enhancement V1.3.37 Headbone
    INT:80
    HCK: +55


    Barter

    TL:80
    Diamond Real Estate “Outzone Salesman” V6.6.6 Headbone
    INT:80
    BRT: +45


    Trader
    (intentionally Construction and Research together and relatively weak for Balance Reasons)

    TL:80
    Tangent “FullDive” virtual planning, prototype Headbone
    INT:80
    CST: + 15
    RES: +15


    Implant

    TL:80
    ProtoPharm MediRay X “no more accidents” V42 Headbone
    INT:80
    IMP:+55


    Intentionally no Implants (Balance Reasons):

    Psi Use
    Weapon Lore
    Willpower

    PSI

    TL:80
    Brother Hood of Crahn “Crahn’s Rejuvenation” Headbone
    PSI:80
    PPU:+25
    APU:+25
    FCS:+15
    PPW: +15


    TL:40
    Fallen Angels “Blood Crown” Crahnslayer Headbone
    CON:40
    PSR: +75


    Arms And Legs

    correlate to Strength values

    Arm

    TL:80
    Twilight Guardian “Yagers Fist” Arm Enforcement
    STR:80
    H-C: +25
    M-C: +25
    FOR: +15
    PCR: +15


    Leg

    TL:80
    City Mercs “The Longest March” Leg Enforcement
    STR:80
    TRA: +50
    FOR: +15
    PCR: +15


    Gloves

    correlate to Dexterity values

    TL:80
    Black Dragon “Wise Mans Hands” Trigger Fingers Glove
    DEX:80
    P-C: + 35
    T-C: + 20
    AGL: +15
    PSI USE 1


    TL:80
    Tsunami Syndicate “5h007” Trigger Fingers Glove
    DEX:80
    R-C: +35
    T-C: + 20
    AGL: +15
    PSI USE 1


    TL:80
    NEXt “Fast and Furious” Tech Fingers Glove
    DEX:80
    VHC: +25
    REP: +25
    RCL: +35
    AGL: + 15
    PSI USE 1


    Intentionally no Implants (Balance Reasons):

    Recycle

    Chest and Feet
    correlate to Constitution values

    Chest

    TL:45
    BioTech “Ceres Soldier” Chest Enforcement
    CON:45
    HLT:+30
    END:+15
    FIR:+25
    POR:+25


    TL:45
    ProtoPharm “Vacuum Exploration” Chest Enforcement
    CON:45
    HLT:+30
    END:+15
    ENR:+25
    XRR:+25


    Feet

    TL:45
    BioTech “Ceres Soldier” Foot Enforcement
    CON:45
    ATL:+30
    END:+30
    FIR:+15
    POR:+15


    TL:45
    ProtoPharm “Vacuum Exploration” Foot Enforcement
    CON:45
    ATL:+30
    END:+30
    ENR:+15
    XRR:+15

  4. #4

    Default

    Make default Bones and Bat Queen Set as I proposed.

    Final proposition for the Rare Bones (Balance Check, values were over the top)

    Changes are Red

    Headbones

    correlate to INT/PSI

    INT

    Hacking

    TL:80
    NCPD 1-w1n System Bypass Enhancement V1.3.37 Headbone
    INT:80
    HCK: +55

    Barter

    TL:80
    Diamond Real Estate “Outzone Salesman” V6.6.6 Headbone
    INT:80
    BRT: +45

    Trader
    (intentionally Construction and Research together and relatively weak for Balance Reasons)

    TL:80
    Tangent “FullDive” virtual planning, prototype Headbone
    INT:80
    CST: + 15
    RES: +15

    Implant

    TL:80
    ProtoPharm MediRay X “no more accidents” V42 Headbone
    INT:80
    IMP:+55

    Intentionally no Implants (Balance Reasons):

    Psi Use
    Weapon Lore
    Willpower

    PSI


    TL:80
    Brother Hood of Crahn “Crahn’s Vengeance” Headbone
    PSI:80
    APU:+25
    FCS:+15
    PPW: +15


    TL:80
    Brother Hood of Crahn “Crahn’s Rejuvenation” Headbone
    PSI:80
    PPU:+25
    FCS:+15
    PPW: +15

    TL:40
    Fallen Angels “Blood Crown” Crahnslayer Headbone
    CON:40
    PSR: +75

    Arms And Legs

    correlate to Strength values

    Arm

    TL:80
    Twilight Guardian “Yagers Fist” Arm Enforcement
    STR:80
    H-C: +20
    M-C: +20
    FOR: +8
    PCR: +8


    Leg

    TL:80
    City Mercs “The Longest March” Leg Enforcement
    STR:80
    TRA: +45
    FOR: +8
    PCR: +8


    Gloves 

    correlate to Dexterity values

    TL:80
    Black Dragon “Wise Mans Hands” Trigger Fingers Glove
    DEX:80
    P-C: +25
    T-C: +10
    AGL: +5

    PSI USE 1

    TL:80
    Tsunami Syndicate “5h007” Trigger Fingers Glove
    DEX:80
    R-C: +25
    T-C: +10
    AGL: +5

    PSI USE 1

    TL:80
    NEXt “Fast and Furious” Tech Fingers Glove
    DEX:80
    VHC: +25
    REP: +20
    RCL: +25
    AGL: + 5

    PSI USE 1

    Intentionally no Implants (Balance Reasons):

    Recycle

    Chest and Feet
    correlate to Constitution values

    Chest

    TL:45
    BioTech “Ceres Soldier” Chest Enforcement
    CON:45
    HLT:+20
    END:+15
    FIR:+12
    POR:+12


    TL:45
    ProtoPharm “Vacuum Exploration” Chest Enforcement
    CON:45
    HLT:+20
    END:+15
    ENR:+12
    XRR:+12


    Feet

    TL:45
    BioTech “Ceres Soldier” Foot Enforcement
    CON:45
    ATL:+20
    END:+10
    FIR:+8
    POR:+8


    TL:45
    ProtoPharm “Vacuum Exploration” Foot Enforcement
    CON:45
    ATL:+20
    END:+10
    ENR:+8
    XRR:+8

  5. #5

    Default

    @Bragi

    Any Feedback? When can we expect the next set of changes hit Veedena?

    Thanks and Regards

    Odi

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Odimara Orca View Post
    Any Feedback? When can we expect the next set of changes hit Veedena?
    Soon™

    It will take a little longer to go through in detail but the first impression is that it seems very tank-bias (intentionally or not).
    The size of the bonuses are very large too (+55 tradeskill for the headbones?).

    Another issue is a case of a base-line, or lack thereof. It's fine having a range of items for a character to progress up as they level, but if there's only one end-game item that's 'best' for a certain class or sub-class then there is less choice for players to tailor their character to their play-style.

    Some interesting themes though.
    I was thinking of going a bit further, with a full BQ set, maybe a shaman set, etc. Genotoxic I forgot about, not sure how.
    Bragi
    Balancing
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  7. #7

    Default

    Hello

    It seems Tank bias because bones are balanced through strength requirements. I suggest you keep this theme, i see no reason to throw something that works overboard.

    +55 to certain tradeskills, to make Hacking / Implanting possible. You don't see the same for Res/Const. So these are quality of live implants (also making Belts easier to hack will make the game more interesting).

    You need these Endgame Items. If you equalize all the Options you end up with what people did not like about the first implant iteration:

    Everything is equaly useless.

    Also something endgame to aim for provides everybody with more content.

    You shouldn't jump to far you can always add other things.

    Don't try to reinvent the whole game at once.

    Regards

    Odi

  8. #8

    Default

    There are maluses on bone enforcements? I'd also be for removing those. I understand the purpose, but I think it's more fun/rewarding to i.e.: decide between two items that both have good bonuses, rather than add in maluses and try to build around those

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Izeo View Post
    There are maluses on bone enforcements? I'd also be for removing those. I understand the purpose, but I think it's more fun/rewarding to i.e.: decide between two items that both have good bonuses, rather than add in maluses and try to build around those
    Agreed wholeheartedly. Malus is not required for meaningful choices. I like that some items have malus, but I think adding them to (most) bones is overdoing it.

    As a sidenote, I've always been iritated by these things being called "bone enforcements". It should be "bone reinforcement(s)". Furthermore, some are labeled as enforcements, others as just (for example) "headbone". Also, "headbone" is not a thing, it should be skull.

    Might I suggest this convention:
    <Type> <Bone> Reinforcement

    So, for instance, you might have

    Experimental Skull Reinforcement

    or

    Antigamma Femur Reinforcement

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by onero S View Post
    Agreed wholeheartedly. Malus is not required for meaningful choices. I like that some items have malus, but I think adding them to (most) bones is overdoing it.

    As a sidenote, I've always been iritated by these things being called "bone enforcements". It should be "bone reinforcement(s)". Furthermore, some are labeled as enforcements, others as just (for example) "headbone". Also, "headbone" is not a thing, it should be skull.

    Might I suggest this convention:
    <Type> <Bone> Reinforcement

    So, for instance, you might have

    Experimental Skull Reinforcement

    or

    Antigamma Femur Reinforcement
    Good Idea.

    Now I would rework everything with that in mind.

    @Bragi

    Are you just looking for inspiration or an actual input you'd upload to the Testserver to test out (with modification where you see fit ofc).

    Just for inspiration purposes I won't bother reworking the whole thing again and again :-)

    Regards

    Odi

  11. #11

    Default

    Blarg.

    OK. Here's a little something we cooked up.

    BQtease.png

    Quote Originally Posted by Odimara Orca View Post
    Are you just looking for inspiration or an actual input you'd upload to the Testserver to test out (with modification where you see fit ofc).

    Just for inspiration purposes I won't bother reworking the whole thing again and again :-)
    The general purpose was inspiration rather than stat specifics.

    That said I have been reviewing the bone system as a whole for a while.

    We I/we have to choose a standard/baseline/normal for end game bones and base any other end game bone from it.
    Where that baseline sits is probably where I am undecided the most.

    One question is?: Do you treat each bone implant as equal to a brain or backbone implant, view a whole set as equal to the same or somewhere in between?
    A tricky thing with the regular and advanced bones is that they give lots of small bonuses in different areas; A total of +50 sub-skill across 5 skills is not as valuable as +50 to a single skill, not to mention (for example) +50 AGL is more valuable than +50 XRR.

    The next version of gamma bones will not have negative stats, but they might be less potent than they are now.
    The experimental bones will feature a single benefit across the set, but have a small malus (confined to a smaller number of sub-skills).
    Other planned sets may do what others do, but with bigger benefits and a malus not featured on the regular version.
    Eg. if a gamma bone gave +10 XRR, then a Genotoxic bone might give +20 XRR and -5 HLT.
    Bragi
    Balancing
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  12. #12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bragi View Post
    Blarg.

    OK. Here's a little something we cooked up.

    BQtease.png



    The general purpose was inspiration rather than stat specifics.

    That said I have been reviewing the bone system as a whole for a while.

    We I/we have to choose a standard/baseline/normal for end game bones and base any other end game bone from it.
    Where that baseline sits is probably where I am undecided the most.

    One question is?: Do you treat each bone implant as equal to a brain or backbone implant, view a whole set as equal to the same or somewhere in between?
    A tricky thing with the regular and advanced bones is that they give lots of small bonuses in different areas; A total of +50 sub-skill across 5 skills is not as valuable as +50 to a single skill, not to mention (for example) +50 AGL is more valuable than +50 XRR.

    The next version of gamma bones will not have negative stats, but they might be less potent than they are now.
    The experimental bones will feature a single benefit across the set, but have a small malus (confined to a smaller number of sub-skills).
    Other planned sets may do what others do, but with bigger benefits and a malus not featured on the regular version.
    Eg. if a gamma bone gave +10 XRR, then a Genotoxic bone might give +20 XRR and -5 HLT.
    I don't think they are equal to brain implants.

    Bones always gave a minor bonus to resist and a tiny bit of M-C or AGL.

    I think it's quite alright for Bones not to be super potent, they are not bad as they currently are. (Gamma Bones are a bit to strong, but that's because force resists are so damn useless in the current meta.. if you replace the force resists on the experimental bones with pierce resist they would be equal as endgame choices).

    If you want to 'pimp' bones do specialisation bones as I suggested them.

    But watch out!


    Most of these 'special' bones shoul use the same slot (Hands for example).

    You have to force them to make a Choice.

    For example if there is a +30 P-C and a +30 AGL it should not be possible to use them at the same time.

    You could use hand implants for combat boosts and Headbones for Trade boosts (some hacking for farming would be nice for example)

  13. #13

    Default

    really more or less just do what i suggested @_@

  14. #14
    Bitter Veteran Hell-demon's Avatar
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    Default

    I've always liked the bones as resistance based implants, and I suppose that makes sense technically.

    I think some sets should provide different resists and small stat boosts. Such as the batqueen giving good melee and endurance for a melee play style.

    Perhaps experimental bones should provide energy resists?

    You could create psionic infussed bones for psi resistance perhaps?

    It also might help some builds to have con based requirements rather than strength based.
    I’m going to become rich and famous after I invent a device that allows you to stab people in the face over the internet.

  15. #15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bragi View Post
    We I/we have to choose a standard/baseline/normal for end game bones and base any other end game bone from it.
    Where that baseline sits is probably where I am undecided the most.
    So you have to decide with which factor the different values will be rated.

    Do it like this:

    - Balance for PvP relevant skills.
    - Tradeskills have to be looked at separately.

    PvP relevant skills:

    - "Usable Energies" (PSU, HTL, END, PPW) have Factor 0.5
    - Weapon Skills (WPW, M-C, H-C, P-C, R-C, PPU, APU) have Factor 1
    - "Requirement Only Skills" (RCL, T-C, FCS) have Factor 1
    - Speed Skills (ATL, AGL) have Factor 1.5

    - Resist Skills (FIR, XRR, POR, PSR have Factor 1)
    - 3 Exceptions (PIR, FOR, ENR)
    - PIR is atm a Main Damage Type, it has Factor 1.5
    - ENR is atm a Main Damage Type, it has Factor 1.5
    - FOR is atm a useless Damage Type it has Factor 0.5

    INT

    PSU (Factor 0.5)
    WEP (Factor 1)
    WPW (Factor 1)

    STR

    M-C (Factor 1)
    H-C (Factor 1)
    PIR (Factor 1.5)
    FOR (Factor 0.5)

    CON

    ATL (Factor 1.5)
    HTL (Factor 0.5)
    END (Factor 0.5)
    ENR (Factor 1.5)
    FIR (Factor 1)
    XRR (Factor 1)
    POR (Factor 1)

    DEX

    P-C (Factor 1)
    R-C (Factor 1)
    T-C (Factor 1)
    AGL (Factor 1.5)
    RCL (Factor 1)

    PSI

    PPU (Factor 1)
    APU (Factor 1)
    FCS (Factor 1)
    PPW (Factor 0.5)
    PSR (Factor 1)

    So

    1 Point M-C (F1) equals 0.66 Points AGL (F1.5)

    1 Point AGL (F1.5) equals 3 Points END (F0.5)

    Use this to convert the values across items. Glad I could help with something that should've been adressed before you started this project.

    Tradeskills

    - Quality of life (HCK, IMP, REC) have Factor 0.5
    - Important for Economy and better not boosted too much (CST, RES, REP) have Factor 1.5
    - Working as intended (BRT) have Factor 1.

    INT

    HCK (Factor 0.5)
    BRT (Factor 1)
    CST (Factor 1.5)
    RES (Factor 1.5)
    IMP (Factor 0.5)

    DEX

    REP (Factor 1.5)
    REC (Factor 0.5)

    Considering the Values on Endgame Items

    Currently (which is a well balanced environment)

    From the TL6 to the TL76 Arm Enforcement the boni are multiplied by about ~5.

    So every 14TL the Value gets increased by 100 percent of the TL6 base value.

    If we go on like this a TL 115 Arm Enforcement should have about ~8 times the base value

    In terms of Arm Enforcements it would look something like this:

    6 Arm Enforcement STR:6 M‑C:+2.37 FOR:+3.55
    25 BioTech Anti-gamma Arm enforcement STR:25 M‑C:+4.85 XRR:+7.20
    26 Advanced Arm Enforcement STR:26 M‑C:+4.93 FOR:+7.39
    46 BioTech Experimental Arm Enforcement STR:46 M‑C:+7.49 FOR:+11.23
    76 Bat Queen Arm Enforcement STR:76 M‑C:+11.20 FOR:+16.80
    115 Odi's Test Bone STR:115 M-C:+18.96 FOR:+28.4

    In this case we'd have M-C with Factor 1 and FOR with Factor 0.5

    18.96 * 1 + 28.4 * 0.5 = you got about 33 Factor 1 Points on this specific Bone enforcement.

    You could do this for specific Implants (Bones, Brain, Backbones) to get an average on where to base the Endgame Bones.

    I hope that's enough inspiration for you on how to use a more or less logical system to balance everything.

    I shitted this out in about 10 minutes so feel free to play with how important i rate the different values.

    Regards

    Odi

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