Recruit the Noobs

[I See Blue]

Sorry I tuned out. You're missing the point. I don't want your clan to disband. I couldn't care.

I'm telling you from experience some of the contributing reasons why you have no opposition.

I don't care for anecdotes or war stories. The fundamental reasons why PvP in this game is flat are here as stated.


3 other people posted after me yet your entire post just aims at me.

Great. Well done. Still not interested in training noobs or any of the other stuff you're harping on about.

I will finish with a quote from Shakespeare.

Words to heat of deeds, doth cold breath give.

Actions speak louder than words. My words go unheard so my action is to choose my entertainment elsewhere.


In case you aren't sure what I mean - split your clan and YOU train the noobs. Get them into your new clans. Train them and everything else you're telling us to do.

As for your clan, in case you haven't noticed. I honestly don't care.

What point am I missing? That you think 17th should train up everyone on the server, and then turn them over to you so you get someone to opfight with? Because you can´t be bothered to train people yourself? You must have enormous respect for us in 17th since you seem to think we are responsible for teaching everyone on this server.

As for me telling my store: me getting into the game 4 months ago and 17th letting me in and letting me fight with them, was meant to show you that 17th actually has made an effort to train people up. And I´m not the only one who has been given time and training in this clan. And to show for that effort 17th has an opfighting-team.

As for me personally, I´ve shown many new players around, helped out with starter weps, practiced in Neofrag with people. I helped out the guys whos tarted the NC^1 clan, I even have a character in that clan, helped a few of them lvl and get gear.

So my clans actions, and my actions speak for themselves. You however, seem more interested in just reaping the rewards of others efforts, not wanting to train people, not letting them have the time to grow as fighters. Helping peopl isn´t about throwing gear at them, it´s about teaching them some stuff, showing them the fun of the game, letting the into the fights even if they aren´t the best fighters at the moment.

As for the other peoples posts, I did talk about what Powerpunsh said, he talked about noobs just being cannonfodder. I said that what they needed was to be given time and practice and experience. Specifically, I said this:

"Yes noobs will occasionally hurt you a bit in fights in the beginning. But then they start to get a grasp of things and soon they make pretty much a neutral impression on a fight. And then, after being neutral for a while, getting their practice in, they start to make a positive impact on fights. But you gotta live through the first two phases first, accepting that they will need time to grow. What you need to do is to accept that you might have to let people have time to get better, like the people in 17th did."


As for the posts on improving game mechanics, etc from Ake and Zoltan, this was not the topic of the thread, nor do I know enough about the progress of the balancing project or the fixing of game mechanics to discuss it. I know some stuff I would like to work better, and I definitely want balancing, but that wasn´t what we were talking about.

I really do think that actions speak louder than words. You´re leaving... So it must mean you don´t really care that much.

What you should have done is make the effort in game instead, like I did. Like 17th did. And then, you might have had something to show for it.


And Falk, come back, it was great fun fighting TASA, even if you´re a fucking nightmare to put down most of the time, and we lost as much as we won. Some good fights tho.

[Drachenpaladin]

What point am I missing? That you think 17th should train up everyone on the server, and then turn them over to you so you get someone to opfight with? Because you can´t be bothered to train people yourself? You must have enormous respect for us in 17th since you seem to think we are responsible for teaching everyone on this server.

No. Just make a wing clan, split your members in half and proceed to beat each other to pulp. Thats the entire gist of it.

[aKe`cj]

As for the posts on improving game mechanics, etc from Ake and Zoltan, this was not the topic of the thread, nor do I know enough about the progress of the balancing project or the fixing of game mechanics to discuss it. I know some stuff I would like to work better, and I definitely want balancing, but that wasn´t what we were talking about.

I threw in the game mechanics issue because I felt that what is being suggested boils down to voluntary commitments (a "community gentlemen's agreement" if you like). My experience is, that this sort of stuff - noble intentions honoured - does not work out in the long run (it works until it fails and things fail fast). Neocron more than most games, has a history of attracting cunts that take pleasure in ruining other peoples fun, even when (or because) it hurts the game as a whole.
That is, why I believe it is the GameMasters and Developers responsibility to lay out the basic rules.

I do not believe that NC is lacking a majority of helpful players and clans willing to support newbies. Contrary to that, I regularly see newbs getting pampered by vets. What NC is lacking is a critical mass of players - there should not be the need to appeal to people to form a "second decent clan" so there can be a total of 2 active op fighting crews. Fix the game and the number of active clans will fix itself.

[...]I've talked to some of these people, they explained me their playstyle with "[...] because the game mechanics allows me to do so.". - Yes of course, but this is what makes people leaving the fight scene around outposts,

One can blame the cunts, but they won't change. Game mechanics and RoC however can.

PS: if you're in a hurry, it's cj, not aKe

[I See Blue]

No. Just make a wing clan, split your members in half and proceed to beat each other to pulp. Thats the entire gist of it.

He doesn´t want us to make a "wing clan", he wants us to split. He says so explicitly.

But why? All you would end up with is two clans of reduced strenght. And both would be able to opfight less often, since we most of the time have 4-8 players online for our fights, and not necessarily the same people every time. All you would achieve with this is breaking up one of the few functioning clans into two smaller and less functional clans. Actually, SXR has had some fights on their own since they joined up with us, so we sort of already have a wing clan.

As I said, there need to be an acceptance from other people that they have to allow people into PvP without them being great at it from the start. As I stated in another thread ( http://forum.neocron-game.com/showth...-for-your-game ) I´d be interested in starting up a training clan with a few people, to take people in and easing them into the game and PvP. I have a few chars I could spec around to support new players in such a clan. I might look into getting one started when I get back in a few days.

And I have to say this again, it´s not like we have 50 members here. It´s more like 12-13, with a few other people dropping in at random times. And these 12-13 don´t play constantly, so at most fights we can muster between 3-4 and 7-8 fighters. Is it that hard to see that splitting that up wouldn´t do much good? It would just result in, as I have said before, two lesser clans who most of the time would be unable to muster a fighting group.

No, the solution isn´t to ruin the clans who are able to fight, the solution is to include more players in PvP, taking the time to train them, bringing them to fights, teaching them some tactics and letting them get some experience. That is what this thread is about. People need to stop excluding people just because they fear that they might be bad in the beginning. It´s about making an effort. I´d be happy to help, as I have done before. I, and I believe most of 17th with me, want fights. With bigger numbers, with good players, with different clans.


Anyways, Will. I don´t agree with you on a lot of things, and I think you post more on feeling than on well thought through concepts, but you seem to care about the game. A pity you are giving up tho, this game can´t really afford to lose people.

By the way, for a guy that doesn´t care about 17th, you mention us an awful lot and seem to expect us to train everyone.

[hudsonbeck]

My 2 cents:
The initial post, along with many other initial posts in other threads was, as I understand it, simply a plea for action. In this particular case it was asking for someone/others to help new players start a clan or build a clan to increase OP wars... We seem to be far from that at this point in the thread!

It is obvious everyone here has a special place in their heart for Neocron and only want it better, more players, continued longevity. The forum is an interesting place, a lot of great things can come out of it but a lot of toxic things as well! I can tell you that for me in the past, many many years ago, I let The toxicity that sometimes happen get to me and it honestly ruined the game for me and I stopped playing. I quit coming to the form and just started playing the game that I enjoyed and not worrying about every detail and just played. And the fun came back and I once again enjoyed playing neocron. I know most people's hearts are in the right place but be careful and don't let these things ruin the game for you. Just play and have fun.

I've recently returned in the last few weeks and started playing again. I have four accounts but only a few midrange character so far. The game is a lot different now. As I've said previously I can absolutely vouch for the 17th and the regulators for being a lot of assistance in and out of the game.

However, one bit of advice... Most times it's better to say things like "hey I'm going to do this Who wants to help?"

Far too many great ideas or suggestions take no action.

I hope this did not come off as me being on my soapbox but I felt things were far too off-track. Should this thread be edited for discussion not related to the original topic there would be little to read. I've been there before been so frustrated and just giving up I hate to see others in the same situation.

So just try to play and have fun in the game that you enjoy worry less about the details and know that the developers are working. Keep helping the new players like all of you have been, God knows we need it :-)

[I See Blue]

Good man, welcome back.

And yeah, we´re pretty good at being assholes to eachother, in and out of game. There´s more love in the game now than before tho, at least towards people who return or noobs.

As for doing stuff, I´ve got a thread going called "Ask not what your game can etc. etc." that seems to have just about died out a few days ago. The stuff we agreed on there I will try putting into action when I get home on monday/tuesday.

This includes some events, some noobhelp, instructional videos with Faid and maybe a clan that will recruit and train for fights and lvling. Doing some basic opfighting drills, some neofrag, as well as helping people get their lvls and find ways to get good gear.


My main reason for wanting to start that clan is that I´ve seen quite a lot of people asking for clans, and noone picking them up. And at the same time the bigger clans complain they have noone online.

[hudsonbeck]

Yes I See Blue, I have read your posts and commend you for all your efforts. You put in a lot to help and your posts and ideas do seem to come from a good place. I did not mean to sound as if I thought otherwise.

I have always enjoyed the ingame assholes and douchebags. But I haven't really been around in a long time and most of the ones in my day are g0ne and for good reasons.

I have been approached a couple times to join up with Leonard nemoy (sp?) but it will be a couple weeks until I have a Pvp ready character of two. Then I'll find a fun mature clan who's active. I know things change all the time. Hopefully 17th, regulators, pricks, etc will still be around.

I was never the best at Pvp in my day but I wasn't half bad...

[Doc Holliday]

Blue you need to step back from the thread. Your getting too wound up.

Its all well and good saying train the noobs etc.

You and your clan clearly are missing the key point by a country mile here though. Who has time to do this? Who has inclination to want to do it? Do you want to play baby sitter to a bunch of players who could be years younger than you for one?

Do you really want to put extra effort when you may only have limited gaming hours to physically play the game and you spend it wiping some guys digital arse because he needs the practice etc.

This is an extreme example but an example nonetheless. What will said is absolutely correct. You are outright refusing to even make an alt clan to fight against to try and generate some fights.

17th are the kings of a dead server. I could see it going down 2 months ago. You guys (i hate finger pointing) contributed to this as much as anyone. Now your the ones left to look at the mess. Its like a drunken husband going crazy and smashing things in an argument with his wife who then ups and leaves and he wakes up to the mess. Thats what this is. So many clans quit because of boredom or what ever.

You need to accept this for what it is and not talk about what might have been and throw shit at people on the forum. The thread you referred to never came to fruition for ALL of the above reasons. We decided it not worth the hassle or the aggro and because you guys ninja'ed ops off us first and we decided to let you have them and go elsewhere. Cause and effect. Julius had a hand in it all too with his bullshit bully boy tactics in the email linked in another thread. If it was an attempt at roleplay it was utter shit and could have been much better and would have garnered a reply in kind.

However this is all in the past albeit the very recent. As it stands now SOMEONE has to make a move first. SOMEONE has to start and make a change and until that happens you are going to be in the same issue so as william said take a step back or get off your high horse or what ever it is and accept that your in the shit (as mentioned in the op) and look at real ways to fix the problem.


Oh and good luck with that. If/when the attitude changes as well as the pops i might come to play again. I dont expect miracles however. I hope to see some actual results and positive discussion in the remainder of this thread with someone stepping up and saying OK im making XYZ clan called this and we are gonna be this and do this and this cause this would be a perfect thread to do some recruiting but again i cant see that happening.

Finishing the post on a positive note good luck chaps with it all.

@hudson dont join nimoys clan. You will get more trouble for that than its worth.

[William Antrim]

Put your left hand over the avatar of a post before you reply to it. I never wanted your clan to split up. You're insignificant in my eyes, or no more or less significant than anyone else.

You need to understand that nothing you say is going to change ny mind. I can't be bothered to help you simply. It's about the fun. There is no fun in it for me. Many others feel the same.

If you pay me sure I will help, otherwise no thanks but please take the stick out of your arse. No clan is that special to me in nc. With the exception of the one in my sig. The rest of you are just targets. One day I might grace you with my presence. Until then I couldnt care.

[I See Blue]

Hudson, I´m with Doc on Nimoy, he has a certain amount of previous on the server. He was in 17th for instance, and attacked a clanmate when he fought against a member of a KoS clan, and was kicked. He also has had some arguments with Regulators. And he has kept up the arguments and insults for ages after the incidents. But you´ll notice eventually I guess.



Now Doc. I´m getting wound up? I´m the one suggesting realistic things here, not just suggesting that others disband because I am unable to compete, or expecting others to do all the work.

What Will here seems to miss out completely on, is that training people, growing a clan doesn´t just happen on it´s own. This always took effort and time, even when there were more people around. If you didn´t make an effort with your clan you ended up with a disjointed and ineffective fighting force. And some people do get satisfaction from creating something functioning out of chaos, from helping people.

I´m by no means saying you should be spending every second in game training people. But if you help people get going, giving them that little nudge, spending that half hour in neofrag with them, taking them to an op fight to show them how it works, then they might get more into it. They might start seeking fights and training on their own. I´m not talking about constant handholding here which is what you guys seem to think. I´m talking about to lead a clan and make it something more than just a group of people on a teamspeak, you gotta learn to cooperate, to train together, to lvl together.

Why is it our responsibility to make an alt clan? When was this ever a viable long term solution? Who would this create more fights for? Ourselves? We can already arrange infights. And Will has consistently said disband, split etc, not create an alt clan. So don´t try to change around what he has stated before. No, the solution is to rally the rest of the server, to help them create something, which I have said time and again that I would be willing to aid with. Not that Will listens to alternatives to his crackpot splitting idea.


I´ve argued why the split isn´t a good idea, and you or Will have still to show me how taking a regular opfighting group of 4 to 8 people and splitting that in two will help anything. I argue that it will end up with much the same as Regulators, with there being very rare occasions when there are enough people on to start a fight. Wasn´t that your experience with 4-5 people?


I´ve been saying again and again how 17th grew through making an effort. How it took in people who were not experienced and gave them time and experience. How We´ve spent time practicing in neofrag, and had mock opfights. How I try and help out people when I come across them. Yet again and again Will says I have to start doing something to improve things. Both he and you don´t seem to realise you have to make an effort to make an impact in this game.

So I´ve come to the conclusion that there is no point answering Will, because he doesn´t really argue his points. He just makes statements and expects people to agree, and if people disagree and argue against his points he ignores the arguments. Great way of making progress.

17th gets so many fingers pointed at it, and it is for the simple reason that for random reasons we became the last decently sized clan standing. As far as I know, for no other reason than that other clans quit. TASA and LG disappeared gradually, and AD imploded. We held maybe 1/4 of the map at that time, and were by no means the biggest clan. As far as I know we used no tactics or tricks that other clans didn´t. So I don´t see why we are getting targeted. We might be part of the problem, but to no larger or smaller degree than the rest of the community.

[I See Blue]

Will, either make an argument for your standpoints, with reasons why your ideas would help, or just stop making statements. You´re not arguing your points, just shouting out your opinions, and getting mad when I argue against them. That´s no way to discuss man.

You consistently use negative words like insignificant, trying to correct my spelling (which was a mistake you didn´t own up to. Do you know now why I use threat instead of thread?) and do very little to contribute to a discussion.

For those reasons, I´m just gonna stop responding to whatever you post, since in your own words, you´re not gonna change your opinion. It is therefore useless to discuss anything with you.

Have fun with whatever games you "grace" with your presence.

[William Antrim]

It doesnt matter whether you did what you did or didnt do what you say you did. Its all he said she said we did we didnt.

The problem is not any one clan, it is the community as a whole. It just so happens that a large part of what is left of the op fighting community is in one clan. If you want more fights then thats where you will get them. This is irrespective of what badge/rank/clan tag that person is wearing. If you want fights next week you have to organise it amongst your op fighting chars and players, if you want fights down the road in a few months or years then you have to either A) train the noobs as you said or B) wait for balancing.

If you're happy with your skirmishes and in fighting amongst yourselves then all good. You dont seem to be hence the thread you made in the first instance.

The fact is no other clan has the inclination/willingness/numbers maybe to fight you. Nobody can be bothered to log in for their own reasons so you are left with no opposition.

If you split then you will have a bunch of regular players who will fight each other - this is what you want is it not?

All the people who op fight in nc today are the same ones who have been here for years, just wearing different tags. It is the SAME players underneath so what is the difference between a skirmish of 17th players and a group of people in a different tag. You are ALL THE SAME PLAYERS - you have the fights you want.

You ask why I mention you a lot..... because youre the thread starter bro... I am referring to a conversation (over the internet) that you started. Nothing more, nothing less.

I havent missed out on any of your points. I trained up colleagues, I busted a nut getting clans going and getting them up to op fighting speed. I worked my ass off night and day for extended periods over the last ten or eleven years. As part of a larger community I helped clans get to the top of the server. Been there done that. I dont need to tell war stories. I know how to do it. I had fun doing it. Do I want to do it again? No not really. I am content to let that part of NC slide. Why? Because I can. No other reason. If something is not fun for me I do not do it. I go to work for a living, I do not play nc for a living. I have already done much for this community, I am more than happy with my contribution in that regard.

Why is it your responsibility? Because you're the thread STARTER!!!! you are the one who has the problem

disband/split/create an alt clan.... you are splitting hairs with that one buddy, try atoms next. Nitpicking101 seriously. Lets just stop and take a breath. Ok now lets get back to the discussion.

I make statements which I see as facts. I do not cast my opinions generally. I call the facts as I see them. I make my analysis of a given situation and I state my reasoning why I think these things are happening.

If you want my opinion then here it is:

Tsunami is better than CM in terms of organisation and skill level. If CM disbands/splits/somehow loses some of its skilled players it will no longer have the numbers/skill to compete with Tsunami man for man on a regular basis. Tsunami will then control all of the OPs on the server and CM will go back to being just another clan in NC rather than the one currently holding all of the ops.

CM doesnt like this potential issue and so makes the thread because it wants to retain its influence over the game (lets face it everyone likes being the big boys on the block) and also have fun beating the new guys who join the game.

You are more than welcome to prove otherwise but I have not yet seen a clear plan of action as to how you want to achieve this goal proposed in the original post, other than saying "you guys do it". You made the thread, its your ball you got to make the play.


In my experience if the new guys want to join a clan then they will do it of their own volition. You or I cannot make them.

[I See Blue]

Ok, so what you are saying here is that we aren´t splitting because we are scared to lose influence. Which is just calling us weak, or powerhungry, or unskilled. Insults and assumptions, great argument dude. Maybe we aren´t splitting because we have fun playing together. Because we renjoy the clan we bult together

But hey, at least you finally tried to make an argument, even though it was flawed and based on assumptions.

To spell it out for you, we aren´t in it for the OPs, there is no fun in itself in holding an OP. The fun revolves around the winning and losing of them, the fights. And yeah, I do think that when one clan becomes dominant, it is the server that needs to step up and create resistance. How bad an attitude do you have to have for that to be the solution? How lazy is that? "I can´t be bothered to make an effort, you guys do it."

As for ideas, you contributed in my earlier thread, "Ask not what the game etc etc", where i come with a lot of ideas, so you do know I have put ideas out there. To which your answer, at least initially, don´t bother, just help noobs like you have done before, these suggestions have already been made. Basically you said: "Don´t make the extra effort". Which sort of shows how much you are willing to contribute to the game, aside from snide forum posts.


Oh, and as for you knowing how to build clans. You don´t really, do you now. You obviously failed at it just now, and left because of it. Your threats and boasts turned out to be hot wind, and I suspect this claim is too. You were unable to make an impact, so your answer is that those that oppose you should split up and disband.

Is a group of people that consists of say 11-12 people, and usually have 4 to 8 people online for fights, that invincible to you?

I know I said I wouldn´t answer you, but you made an effort this time, so I did.

[William Antrim]

Enjoy your Op fights bro.


Shame I can't help you any more. I provided an opposing view point. You don't like it. Your words are interpretations, nothing more. No need for me to comment further on that.


Paragraph 3 onwards is nothing but flamebait so nothing to see there either. Either you're unwilling to see my point of view or unable but your opinions are your own. I couldn't care either way. I'm still having fun.

It's your thread so clearly its your problem.


Good luck with the noob training. I hope you get some good opposition soon I really do.

[I See Blue]

Dude, you have provided two viewpoints.

1. You managed something I didn´t, so you should split up. It´s not fair that you have a clan that can fight for OPs and I don´t.

2. You should make the effort of opposing yourself, because I am not able/cba to do it.


That is your point of view. Honestly, it is.


Oh, and there is some bait in that post, but it is still true isn´t it? Obviously the truth stings.

And yeah, I´ll be enjoying my fights and Neocron in general.