[R#186] T#186-T#197 Patch Discussion

[Strife]

I'm with kame on a majority of what's been said. especially laying out more of the details. The feedback in this thread has looked very helpful. I just feel like this inner circle shit needs to stop. It's been 10 months and THIS is all that has been done? You have a community of players, some being here over a decade. Use us or lose us.

[Bragi]

Been on test server for 10 mins with Tino. Definitely a problem with stack damage.

We've spotted this too. A fix is being thought up (we're not sure if we can get the stack damage to scale like instant damage does; either we get it to do so, or stack damage from player weapons is removed and I know that isn't what many people want).

[William Antrim]

If it was up to me I would get rid of it. Pure burst damage is better.

[Kame]

We've spotted this too. A fix is being thought up (we're not sure if we can get the stack damage to scale like instant damage does; either we get it to do so, or stack damage from player weapons is removed and I know that isn't what many people want

Isn't there already a working stack damage on Titan ? Use the same functions/code/config then !!

[Tino]

You think KK went bankrupt because they changed specific weapons that were OP or useless to balance out fighting? You must have not been around for the nc2 days...because to me that is when the downfall of neocron happened, not nc1. If you go around trying to make everything linear again certain weapons and setups will continue to be OP...people will still complain that only certain setups are used. Best way to balance weapons is to take a weapon like the dissy and make it 3 shot burst and reduce clip size...then go on to the next weapon and make changes that will make it a contender vs the dissy....obviously im talking about weapons that are close in TL.

[William Antrim]

Been here since the early days of retail NC1 Tino and nc2 as well. A lot of things made kk go bankrupt. The botched retail release of nc1 started the game off on a bad foot, then NC2 getting delayed, botched and delayed some more. Pops dwindled all throughout. Anyway that is all just speculation with each of us expressing our opinions. None of it helps anything today.

The problem with your solution is what happens when you get past weapons that are within 1 or 2 TLs of the level of the disruptor? What happens when you want to balance a Wyatt Earp for example? How do you do that? You cant just pluck a scale out of the air based on tl115 - tl88 and then go oh hey look give it -27 damage!

If you DONT go around making everything linear how do you expect to achieve balance? Balance is just that - equal forces/mass on either side. If the game is balanced then ALL weapons are viable. If you want slightly higher damage you go for a slightly better gun but it will cost you slightly more in terms of your defence. If you have high skill level (your offence essentially) and you think you have good movement skills and knowledgeable and solid con set ups (defence) then you can trade off some damage versus some more resists. Or if you want to play a damage soaker you stack the high defence at a cost of damage output and soak up the damage the other guy is giving you with lower damage output but you win the war of attrition essentially because although your damage output is lower your aiming skill will compensate and you can achieve the maximum damage output of your weapon over that given time.

One set up will not conquer any other one, thats the whole point of variation. Some people will take more damage, others will dish more out and therefore be able to kill others faster. Either way it will come down to who has the best aim to keep a lock on the other guy. That guy wins the fight.

you understand what i mean?

[Dropout]

You think KK went bankrupt because they changed specific weapons that were OP or useless to balance out fighting? You must have not been around for the nc2 days...because to me that is when the downfall of neocron happened, not nc1. If you go around trying to make everything linear again certain weapons and setups will continue to be OP...people will still complain that only certain setups are used. Best way to balance weapons is to take a weapon like the dissy and make it 3 shot burst and reduce clip size...then go on to the next weapon and make changes that will make it a contender vs the dissy....obviously im talking about weapons that are close in TL.

Im actually against reducing clipsize.. Wouldnt a increase of freq be more fun?
I know I personally love fast freq weapons.. (Gimme back my good old Slasher damnit! )

[Tino]

If you want the Wyatt Earp to be used in pvp then it needs to be changed too...increase frequency? change the damage type it does?

[Bragi]

Isn't there already a working stack damage on Titan ? Use the same functions/code/config then !!

It's not so much that it works or that the damage is an 'acceptable' amount. The stack coding itself has not changed, only the values behind it (in the situation on Vedeena, erroneously).

Lets take two hypothetical examples.

One weapon does 50 instant damage in a given amount of time and 50 damage from stacks in the same period.
Another does 100 instant damage.

The issue is that if the stack damage is not affected by skills, then if the instant damage of these two weapons is changed by (for the sake of argument) 10%, then the first weapon is changed by +/-5 damage and the second by +/-10 damage.
Lower sub-skills favour the stacking weapon, higher sub-skills favour the instant damage weapon. We want all weapons to be equal regardless of sub-skill amount.

A comment was made about the various stages we are working with. Trying to focus on one stage is intended to limit discussion to that specific area - we can't be talking about everything at once. However, explaining what we are doing without giving a wider context is obviously not helping.
Tomorrow I will write something up to give you a broader picture of what we are hoping to achieve and why we are starting with what we are starting with.

Until then, I think it would be best to clear up something: The phrase 'DPM' reads as far to rigid and absolute. What we really means is Proportional Damage per Minute.
The values are only for a given combat sub-skill amount. It's the shape of the curve we are currently testing.
The DPM totals will change according to the sub-skill totals a character has. More on that later though.

[Dropout]

A comment was made about the various stages we are working with. Trying to focus on one stage is intended to limit discussion to that specific area - we can't be talking about everything at once. However, explaining what we are doing without giving a wider context is obviously not helping.
Tomorrow I will write something up to give you a broader picture of what we are hoping to achieve and why we are starting with what we are starting with.

Looking very much forward to that!

BTW: Bragi, are you lead on the balancing project or something? You seem to be the only one replying to things regarding the balancing.

[Bragi]

Something of a complicated question. I can't really say too much about our internal structure. Alduin would be in a better person to respond to that, though I don't know if he would say any more.

I just probably have more spare time at the moment, and while Haliax and Alduin are highly fluent in English, my comfort with the written word as a native speaker means I can convey things in a more precise manner (supposedly).

[jj dynomite]

Pistol Test using the minimum requirements in PC skill and capped, non-implanted PC skill.
Dex & Int = 100
Weapon Lore = 175
No Implants or Armor
Non-Modified Ammo
Non-Slotted, full Artifact weapons

[Kame]

A comment was made about the various stages we are working with. Trying to focus on one stage is intended to limit discussion to that specific area - we can't be talking about everything at once. However, explaining what we are doing without giving a wider context is obviously not helping.
Tomorrow I will write something up to give you a broader picture of what we are hoping to achieve and why we are starting with what we are starting with.

Cant wait to see that.

The issue is that if the stack damage is not affected by skills, then if the instant damage of these two weapons is changed by (for the sake of argument) 10%, then the first weapon is changed by +/-5 damage and the second by +/-10 damage.

I understand this.
However in the actual game right now, our setups are made around the fact that we want aiming cap (250%) on our weapons, so we spec a lot of main combat subskill because main combat subskill affect aiming efficiency. Right now in this game, if you dont have 250% aiming on your weapons youre under par as far as competitive pvp goes.

We optimise a lot on how DEX, STR or PSI and even INT points are spent. This makes each setup individual. While I can understand this seems hard to get full control over but really I think this aspect of the game is essential. It is part of what makes NC what it is.

Lower sub-skills favour the stacking weapon, higher sub-skills favour the instant damage weapon. We want all weapons to be equal regardless of sub-skill amount.

Wait what ?!!?

You guys want to make it so as soon as you hit the required skill you cap the damage on the weapon ?

You want to eliminate the main combat subskill influence on damage ??


Please tell me I understand wrong.

[Dropout]

Wait what ?!!?

You guys want to make it so as soon as you hit the required skill you cap the damage on the weapon ?

You want to eliminate the main combat subskill influence on damage ??


Please tell me I understand wrong.

I think you understood it wrong..
The way I understood it, is that the stacking damage (the DoT) isnt effected by weapon skill.
Which would lead to weapons with stacking ammo would be great for low weaponskill (since the DoT is at a fixed amount), but would be bad if you had a ton of weaponskill.

Thats how I understood it anyways.

[Kame]

Just eliminate the main combat subkill influence on STACK damage ??

Wait thats already what it is, and its deemed a problem...


This is the statement :

Lower sub-skills favour the stacking weapon, higher sub-skills favour the instant damage weapon. We want all weapons to be equal regardless of sub-skill amount.