Your input on: Bone Enforcements

Dem bones dem bones, dem high tech implant bones.

There's lots of variety when it comes to implants and armour in NC, but not much when it comes to the bones.

On Vedeena the 'base-line' set for end-game is the Advanced series, though individually a little weak the whole set provides: 31 force, 8 pierce, 8 end, 5 melee, 6 transport and 4 agl. That's 62 skill points.
Is that enough? Some brain implants give nearly as much alone, but what about power creep? Should there be Tier 3 bones and if so how would you deal with the requirements on Spies and Monks?

In addition to those, the gamma and experimental bones give a larger boost but reduce something else (though looking at the former, the downside might be a bit high).

Aside from that, we really only have the Bat Queen chest and arm (which are currently pretty much tank-only items).

What about a full Bat Queen set?
What about bones from other boss mobs like the Apparition, Shaman and Viper King?
Rare bones?

What about the hand slot? Aside from psi and tradeskill gloves, what else could we have?

Do they even have to be bones? What about exoskeleton stuff.

PvP, PvE, tradeskill; Have at it chummers.

Hand bones?

Hhhhhmmmm

Maybe reinforced knuckles that give extra melee damage. Anti-shake stabilizers for improved accuracy. Ultra fast fingers for hacking?

Hey Bragi

Please scrap the maluses on Bones on Veedena, they are counterproductive if you want people to have multiple valuable choices.

My Proposition:

Default Sets still available with integer Values:

Low Tech

TL10
Headbone
STR:10
FOR:+4
PSR:+3
From: Cryton

TL15
Chest
STR:15
FOR:+4
END:+5
From: Cryton

TL6
Arm Enforcement
STR:6
M-C:+3
FOR:+4
From: Cryton

TL12
Leg Enforcement
STR:12
TRA:+3
FOR:+5
From: Cryton

TL4
Foot Enforcement
STR:4
FOR+3
AGL:+3
From: Cryton

BioTech Advanced

TL30
Advanced Headbone
STR:30
FOR:+8
PSR:+6
From: Cryton

TL35
Advanced Chest Enforcement
STR:35
FOR:+8
END:+10
From: Cryton

TL26
Advanced Arm Enforcement
STR:26
M-C:+6
FOR:+8
From: Cryton

TL32
Advanced Leg Enforcement
STR:32
TRA:+6
FOR:+10
From: Cryton

TL24
Advanced Foot Enforcement
STR:24
FOR:+6
AGL:+6
From: Cryton
 
BioTech Experimental

TL50
Experimental Headbone
STR:50
FOR:+12
PSR:+9
From: FA FSM

TL55
Experimental Chest
STR:55
FOR:+12
END:+14
From: FA FSM

TL46
Experimental Arm Enforcement
STR:46
M-C:+9
FOR:+12
From: FA FSM

TL52
Experimental Leg Enforcement
STR:52
TRA:+9
FOR:+14
From: FA FSM

TL44
Experimental Foot Enforcement
STR:44
FOR:+9
AGL:+9
From: FA FSM

BioTech Antigamma

TL28
Anitgamma Headbone
STR:28
XRR:+8
PSR:+5
From: FA

TL33
Antigamma Chest
STR:33
END:+9
XRR:+6
From: FA

TL25
Antigamma Arm Enforcement
STR:25
M-C:+5
XRR:+8
From: FA

TL32
Antigamma Leg Enforcement
STR:32
TRA:+6
XRR:+8
From: FA

TL23
Antigamma Foot Enforcement
STR:23
XRR:+6
AGL:+6
From: FA
 
Bat Queen Set

gets completed by 2 Viper Queen and 1 Genotoxic Nightmare drops

TL75
Nightmare Headbone
STR:75
FOR:+20
PSR:+10
From: Genotoxic Nightmare Drop

TL80
Bat Queen Chest Enforcement
STR:80
FOR:+18
END:+12
From: Bat Queen Drop

TL76
Bat Queen Arm Enforcement
STR:76
M-C:+12
FOR:+18
From: Bat Queen Drop

TL78
Viper Queen Leg Enforcement
STR:78
TRA:+14
FOR:+16
From: Viper Queen Drop

TL72
Viper Queen Foot Enforcement
STR:72
FOR:+18
AGL:+12
From: Viper Queen Drop
 
Proposed Rare Bones:

Alle are attained from Rare Parts

Headbones

correlate to INT/PSI

INT

Hacking

TL:80
NCPD 1-w1n System Bypass Enhancement V1.3.37 Headbone
INT:80
HCK: +55

Barter

TL:80
Diamond Real Estate “Outzone Salesman” V6.6.6 Headbone
INT:80
BRT: +45

Trader
(intentionally Construction and Research together and relatively weak for Balance Reasons)

TL:80
Tangent “FullDive” virtual planning, prototype Headbone
INT:80
CST: + 15
RES: +15

Implant

TL:80
ProtoPharm MediRay X “no more accidents” V42 Headbone
INT:80
IMP:+55

Intentionally no Implants (Balance Reasons):

Psi Use
Weapon Lore
Willpower
 
PSI

TL:80
Brother Hood of Crahn “Crahn’s Rejuvenation” Headbone
PSI:80
PPU:+25
APU:+25
FCS:+15
PPW: +15

TL:40
Fallen Angels “Blood Crown” Crahnslayer Headbone
CON:40
PSR: +75

Arms And Legs

correlate to Strength values

Arm

TL:80
Twilight Guardian “Yagers Fist” Arm Enforcement
STR:80
H-C: +25
M-C: +25
FOR: +15
PCR: +15

Leg

TL:80
City Mercs “The Longest March” Leg Enforcement
STR:80
TRA: +50
FOR: +15
PCR: +15

Gloves 

correlate to Dexterity values

TL:80
Black Dragon “Wise Mans Hands” Trigger Fingers Glove
DEX:80
P-C: + 35
T-C: + 20
AGL: +15
PSI USE 1

TL:80
Tsunami Syndicate “5h007” Trigger Fingers Glove
DEX:80
R-C: +35
T-C: + 20
AGL: +15
PSI USE 1

TL:80
NEXt “Fast and Furious” Tech Fingers Glove
DEX:80
VHC: +25
REP: +25
RCL: +35
AGL: + 15
PSI USE 1

Intentionally no Implants (Balance Reasons):

Recycle
 
Chest and Feet
correlate to Constitution values

Chest

TL:45
BioTech “Ceres Soldier” Chest Enforcement
CON:45
HLT:+30
END:+15
FIR:+25
POR:+25

TL:45
ProtoPharm “Vacuum Exploration” Chest Enforcement
CON:45
HLT:+30
END:+15
ENR:+25
XRR:+25

Feet

TL:45
BioTech “Ceres Soldier” Foot Enforcement
CON:45
ATL:+30
END:+30
FIR:+15
POR:+15

TL:45
ProtoPharm “Vacuum Exploration” Foot Enforcement
CON:45
ATL:+30
END:+30
ENR:+15
XRR:+15

Make default Bones and Bat Queen Set as I proposed.

Final proposition for the Rare Bones (Balance Check, values were over the top)

Changes are Red

Headbones

correlate to INT/PSI

INT

Hacking

TL:80
NCPD 1-w1n System Bypass Enhancement V1.3.37 Headbone
INT:80
HCK: +55

Barter

TL:80
Diamond Real Estate “Outzone Salesman” V6.6.6 Headbone
INT:80
BRT: +45

Trader
(intentionally Construction and Research together and relatively weak for Balance Reasons)

TL:80
Tangent “FullDive” virtual planning, prototype Headbone
INT:80
CST: + 15
RES: +15

Implant

TL:80
ProtoPharm MediRay X “no more accidents” V42 Headbone
INT:80
IMP:+55

Intentionally no Implants (Balance Reasons):

Psi Use
Weapon Lore
Willpower
 
PSI


TL:80
Brother Hood of Crahn “Crahn’s Vengeance” Headbone
PSI:80
APU:+25
FCS:+15
PPW: +15

TL:80
Brother Hood of Crahn “Crahn’s Rejuvenation” Headbone
PSI:80
PPU:+25
FCS:+15
PPW: +15

TL:40
Fallen Angels “Blood Crown” Crahnslayer Headbone
CON:40
PSR: +75

Arms And Legs

correlate to Strength values

Arm

TL:80
Twilight Guardian “Yagers Fist” Arm Enforcement
STR:80
H-C: +20
M-C: +20
FOR: +8
PCR: +8

Leg

TL:80
City Mercs “The Longest March” Leg Enforcement
STR:80
TRA: +45
FOR: +8
PCR: +8

Gloves 

correlate to Dexterity values

TL:80
Black Dragon “Wise Mans Hands” Trigger Fingers Glove
DEX:80
P-C: +25
T-C: +10
AGL: +5
PSI USE 1

TL:80
Tsunami Syndicate “5h007” Trigger Fingers Glove
DEX:80
R-C: +25
T-C: +10
AGL: +5
PSI USE 1

TL:80
NEXt “Fast and Furious” Tech Fingers Glove
DEX:80
VHC: +25
REP: +20
RCL: +25
AGL: + 5
PSI USE 1

Intentionally no Implants (Balance Reasons):

Recycle
 
Chest and Feet
correlate to Constitution values

Chest

TL:45
BioTech “Ceres Soldier” Chest Enforcement
CON:45
HLT:+20
END:+15
FIR:+12
POR:+12

TL:45
ProtoPharm “Vacuum Exploration” Chest Enforcement
CON:45
HLT:+20
END:+15
ENR:+12
XRR:+12

Feet

TL:45
BioTech “Ceres Soldier” Foot Enforcement
CON:45
ATL:+20
END:+10
FIR:+8
POR:+8

TL:45
ProtoPharm “Vacuum Exploration” Foot Enforcement
CON:45
ATL:+20
END:+10
ENR:+8
XRR:+8

@Bragi

Any Feedback? When can we expect the next set of changes hit Veedena?

Thanks and Regards

Odi

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Odimara Orca

Any Feedback? When can we expect the next set of changes hit Veedena?

---

Soon™

It will take a little longer to go through in detail but the first impression is that it seems very tank-bias (intentionally or not).
The size of the bonuses are very large too (+55 tradeskill for the headbones?).

Another issue is a case of a base-line, or lack thereof. It's fine having a range of items for a character to progress up as they level, but if there's only one end-game item that's 'best' for a certain class or sub-class then there is less choice for players to tailor their character to their play-style.

Some interesting themes though.
I was thinking of going a bit further, with a full BQ set, maybe a shaman set, etc. Genotoxic I forgot about, not sure how.

Hello

It seems Tank bias because bones are balanced through strength requirements. I suggest you keep this theme, i see no reason to throw something that works overboard.

+55 to certain tradeskills, to make Hacking / Implanting possible. You don't see the same for Res/Const. So these are quality of live implants (also making Belts easier to hack will make the game more interesting).

You need these Endgame Items. If you equalize all the Options you end up with what people did not like about the first implant iteration:

Everything is equaly useless.

Also something endgame to aim for provides everybody with more content.

You shouldn't jump to far you can always add other things.

Don't try to reinvent the whole game at once.

Regards

Odi

There are maluses on bone enforcements? I'd also be for removing those. I understand the purpose, but I think it's more fun/rewarding to i.e.: decide between two items that both have good bonuses, rather than add in maluses and try to build around those

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Izeo

There are maluses on bone enforcements? I'd also be for removing those. I understand the purpose, but I think it's more fun/rewarding to i.e.: decide between two items that both have good bonuses, rather than add in maluses and try to build around those

---

Agreed wholeheartedly. Malus is not required for meaningful choices. I like that some items have malus, but I think adding them to (most) bones is overdoing it.

As a sidenote, I've always been iritated by these things being called "bone enforcements". It should be "bone reinforcement(s)". Furthermore, some are labeled as enforcements, others as just (for example) "headbone". Also, "headbone" is not a thing, it should be skull.

Might I suggest this convention:
<Type> <Bone> Reinforcement

So, for instance, you might have

Experimental Skull Reinforcement

or

Antigamma Femur Reinforcement

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by onero S

Agreed wholeheartedly. Malus is not required for meaningful choices. I like that some items have malus, but I think adding them to (most) bones is overdoing it.

As a sidenote, I've always been iritated by these things being called "bone enforcements". It should be "bone reinforcement(s)". Furthermore, some are labeled as enforcements, others as just (for example) "headbone". Also, "headbone" is not a thing, it should be skull.

Might I suggest this convention:
<Type> <Bone> Reinforcement

So, for instance, you might have

Experimental Skull Reinforcement

or

Antigamma Femur Reinforcement

---

Good Idea.

Now I would rework everything with that in mind.

@Bragi

Are you just looking for inspiration or an actual input you'd upload to the Testserver to test out (with modification where you see fit ofc).

Just for inspiration purposes I won't bother reworking the whole thing again and again :-)

Regards

Odi

Blarg.

OK. Here's a little something we cooked up.

Attachment 12593

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Odimara Orca

Are you just looking for inspiration or an actual input you'd upload to the Testserver to test out (with modification where you see fit ofc).

Just for inspiration purposes I won't bother reworking the whole thing again and again :-)

---

The general purpose was inspiration rather than stat specifics.

That said I have been reviewing the bone system as a whole for a while.

We I/we have to choose a standard/baseline/normal for end game bones and base any other end game bone from it.
Where that baseline sits is probably where I am undecided the most.

One question is?: Do you treat each bone implant as equal to a brain or backbone implant, view a whole set as equal to the same or somewhere in between?
A tricky thing with the regular and advanced bones is that they give lots of small bonuses in different areas; A total of +50 sub-skill across 5 skills is not as valuable as +50 to a single skill, not to mention (for example) +50 AGL is more valuable than +50 XRR.

The next version of gamma bones will not have negative stats, but they might be less potent than they are now.
The experimental bones will feature a single benefit across the set, but have a small malus (confined to a smaller number of sub-skills).
Other planned sets may do what others do, but with bigger benefits and a malus not featured on the regular version.
Eg. if a gamma bone gave +10 XRR, then a Genotoxic bone might give +20 XRR and -5 HLT.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bragi

Blarg.

OK. Here's a little something we cooked up.

Attachment 12593



The general purpose was inspiration rather than stat specifics.

That said I have been reviewing the bone system as a whole for a while.

We I/we have to choose a standard/baseline/normal for end game bones and base any other end game bone from it.
Where that baseline sits is probably where I am undecided the most.

One question is?: Do you treat each bone implant as equal to a brain or backbone implant, view a whole set as equal to the same or somewhere in between?
A tricky thing with the regular and advanced bones is that they give lots of small bonuses in different areas; A total of +50 sub-skill across 5 skills is not as valuable as +50 to a single skill, not to mention (for example) +50 AGL is more valuable than +50 XRR.

The next version of gamma bones will not have negative stats, but they might be less potent than they are now.
The experimental bones will feature a single benefit across the set, but have a small malus (confined to a smaller number of sub-skills).
Other planned sets may do what others do, but with bigger benefits and a malus not featured on the regular version.
Eg. if a gamma bone gave +10 XRR, then a Genotoxic bone might give +20 XRR and -5 HLT.

---

I don't think they are equal to brain implants.

Bones always gave a minor bonus to resist and a tiny bit of M-C or AGL.

I think it's quite alright for Bones not to be super potent, they are not bad as they currently are. (Gamma Bones are a bit to strong, but that's because force resists are so damn useless in the current meta.. if you replace the force resists on the experimental bones with pierce resist they would be equal as endgame choices).

If you want to 'pimp' bones do specialisation bones as I suggested them.

But watch out!


Most of these 'special' bones shoul use the same slot (Hands for example).

You have to force them to make a Choice.

For example if there is a +30 P-C and a +30 AGL it should not be possible to use them at the same time.

You could use hand implants for combat boosts and Headbones for Trade boosts (some hacking for farming would be nice for example)

really more or less just do what i suggested @_@

I've always liked the bones as resistance based implants, and I suppose that makes sense technically.

I think some sets should provide different resists and small stat boosts. Such as the batqueen giving good melee and endurance for a melee play style.

Perhaps experimental bones should provide energy resists?

You could create psionic infussed bones for psi resistance perhaps?

It also might help some builds to have con based requirements rather than strength based.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bragi

We I/we have to choose a standard/baseline/normal for end game bones and base any other end game bone from it.
Where that baseline sits is probably where I am undecided the most.

---

So you have to decide with which factor the different values will be rated.

Do it like this:

- Balance for PvP relevant skills.
- Tradeskills have to be looked at separately.

PvP relevant skills:

- "Usable Energies" (PSU, HTL, END, PPW) have Factor 0.5
- Weapon Skills (WPW, M-C, H-C, P-C, R-C, PPU, APU) have Factor 1
- "Requirement Only Skills" (RCL, T-C, FCS) have Factor 1
- Speed Skills (ATL, AGL) have Factor 1.5

- Resist Skills (FIR, XRR, POR, PSR have Factor 1)
- 3 Exceptions (PIR, FOR, ENR)
- PIR is atm a Main Damage Type, it has Factor 1.5
- ENR is atm a Main Damage Type, it has Factor 1.5
- FOR is atm a useless Damage Type it has Factor 0.5

INT

PSU (Factor 0.5)
WEP (Factor 1)
WPW (Factor 1)

STR

M-C (Factor 1)
H-C (Factor 1)
PIR (Factor 1.5)
FOR (Factor 0.5)

CON

ATL (Factor 1.5)
HTL (Factor 0.5)
END (Factor 0.5)
ENR (Factor 1.5)
FIR (Factor 1)
XRR (Factor 1)
POR (Factor 1)

DEX

P-C (Factor 1)
R-C (Factor 1)
T-C (Factor 1)
AGL (Factor 1.5)
RCL (Factor 1)

PSI

PPU (Factor 1)
APU (Factor 1)
FCS (Factor 1)
PPW (Factor 0.5)
PSR (Factor 1)

So

1 Point M-C (F1) equals 0.66 Points AGL (F1.5)

1 Point AGL (F1.5) equals 3 Points END (F0.5)

Use this to convert the values across items. Glad I could help with something that should've been adressed before you started this project.

Tradeskills

- Quality of life (HCK, IMP, REC) have Factor 0.5
- Important for Economy and better not boosted too much (CST, RES, REP) have Factor 1.5
- Working as intended (BRT) have Factor 1.

INT

HCK (Factor 0.5)
BRT (Factor 1)
CST (Factor 1.5)
RES (Factor 1.5)
IMP (Factor 0.5)

DEX

REP (Factor 1.5)
REC (Factor 0.5)

Considering the Values on Endgame Items

Currently (which is a well balanced environment)

From the TL6 to the TL76 Arm Enforcement the boni are multiplied by about ~5.

So every 14TL the Value gets increased by 100 percent of the TL6 base value.

If we go on like this a TL 115 Arm Enforcement should have about ~8 times the base value

In terms of Arm Enforcements it would look something like this:

6 Arm Enforcement STR:6 M‑C:+2.37 FOR:+3.55
25 BioTech Anti-gamma Arm enforcement STR:25 M‑C:+4.85 XRR:+7.20
26 Advanced Arm Enforcement STR:26 M‑C:+4.93 FOR:+7.39
46 BioTech Experimental Arm Enforcement STR:46 M‑C:+7.49 FOR:+11.23
76 Bat Queen Arm Enforcement STR:76 M‑C:+11.20 FOR:+16.80
115 Odi's Test Bone STR:115 M-C:+18.96 FOR:+28.4

In this case we'd have M-C with Factor 1 and FOR with Factor 0.5

18.96 * 1 + 28.4 * 0.5 = you got about 33 Factor 1 Points on this specific Bone enforcement.

You could do this for specific Implants (Bones, Brain, Backbones) to get an average on where to base the Endgame Bones.

I hope that's enough inspiration for you on how to use a more or less logical system to balance everything.

I shitted this out in about 10 minutes so feel free to play with how important i rate the different values.

Regards

Odi

I am sorry to bump an old thread but I havent seen it properly in some time and sat down today with my NC head on.

Maths is not my strong point I am afraid so please forgive me.

However that aside I would very much like to simplify what bone reinforcements do in NC. I think reading the wall of text above from Odimara Orca is all well and good but a self-confessed maths chimp like me is not going to want to work out what all of that stuff actually means.

I would propose as a general theme to have bones rigidly reinforce one aspect of a character - their defence. Going down the lines of all of this tradeskill stuff and everything else will convolute the issue and start people talking about a million different topics at once. Some of the ideas above were brilliant but I would prefer to deal with one issue at a time.

For me bone implants make the player more like a Terminator. In order to balance those benefits the maximum level bones need to be available to all classes. I would recommend capping the requirements for ALL bones at a level achievable by all classes.

For example 40 Con can be reached by everyone - have the TIER3 bones be usable at up to this level but no higher. Have all of the bones then give a bonus to runspeed (agility and or athletics in equal measure) and body health/endurance. This benefits ALL classes but favours none.

Some classes gain experience in some skills faster than others (Tanks con for example levels quicker than other classes) so will naturally level up quicker. This will lead to mid level imbalances sure but i think this is a necessary evil.

If you want to then go down the route of Dex-based subskill bonuses for dex-based bones replace the bonuses 1 for 1 with PC/RC/whichever.

this way people can make a choice between more health/run speed and more damage output. Keep it simple.


I think 65 points or whatever the bone set gives currently is enough. The game would need an nc1 style runspeed hard cap for the above suggestion to work and it would need to be clearly documented as to what this is but it makes it easier to understand.

I would also want to have individual pieces (bones) giving their own benefits as they do currently but be interchangeable with others - so for example if I wanted to go full health bonuses I would use the health line whereas if I felt I wanted to spec more endurance I could swap out one of my health bones for an endurance bone.

I would want to have the freedom to choose and tailor my style as i saw fit and not have to worry about maluses or anything of that nature.

I would also like to see new bones brought in that give combat bonuses EQUAL to the store bought health/endurance/agility statistic. 10 pistol combat is worth a metric tonne to me more than 10 endurance and I would happily farm the viper king for this however as a baseline I think leaving things the way they are is best.
________________________________________________________________________________________________

TLDR version

Edit for clarity:

I would keep the bones as they are but change all values to only give Health/Endurance/Agility/Athletics.

I would have 2 lines of bones - speed line (Health and End) and stamina line and (Agi Ath).

Have these run all the way up to Experimental.

I would keep the Xray bones line as they are - perhaps add a psi resist line to match them pound for pound (presuming psi damage will be a viable damage type in the future). I would compare the values of Xray bones with their equivalent armour pieces to compare the values of the total resist. I would make the other bonuses on Xray bones in line with the above (Health + Xray for example or End + Xray).

I would introduce a set of bones which are mob drop only but from ALL 120/120 mobs in the game and have these replace 1 of the 2 stats from the store bought lines with a weapon skill adding buff. Akin to what the Bat Queen Arm and Chest do currently but in line with the bonuses given by store bought equivalent.


Edit again:

In terms of gloves - this old thread covered it well.

http://forum.neocron-game.com/showth...ght=hack+glove

Quote:

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Originally Posted by William Antrim

TLDR version

Edit for clarity:

I would keep the bones as they are but change all values to only give Health/Endurance/Agility/Athletics.

I would have 2 lines of bones - speed line (Health and End) and stamina line and (Agi Ath).

---

Maybe I'm nitpicking but did you mix up the lines? Endurance mainly increases the Stamina Points and HLT the lifepoints... so those would be for the Stamina Line, no?
AGI and ATH make you go faster so they are the Speed Line for my understanding.


In general I think it makes sense to Focus bone enforcements on defense and survivability. I wouldn't mind this Change. Not sure about the uberPVP Setups tho. They would probalby Need adjustments to other implants, depending on the balancing. Or combat gloves :P

I think that the hand slot should be able to be a glove with weapon/spell type specializations as well as a means for using Psi spells. like a boost to apu spells, or a boost to heavy combat, while also allowing for spell usage. I know that the tank isn't any good for using spells, but even so, what about the rare heavy weapon PE? maybe a little over the top, but I think that even a tradeskill glove with usage of psi ability could be used. maybe at a higher skill level, or even an added requirement for the skill that holds the specified point accumulation. maybe even possibly needing an amount of a specific skill point distribution to the thing it is about to boost.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drachenpaladin

Maybe I'm nitpicking but did you mix up the lines? Endurance mainly increases the Stamina Points and HLT the lifepoints... so those would be for the Stamina Line, no?

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Yes. I was at work and rushed the post out. Drachen gets the prize. Please reverse the 2 lines on the TLDR section. I meant health and endurance being the stamina line and the agi and ath obviously being the speed bones.