Impact of XP Advantage to Non LEs for LE Wearers

Please stick to the discussion in this thread, get your poison spitting and cries of "I want that" or "I don't want that" somewhere else.

Since it came up again in the brainport I had to ask myself again what the problem is, if people without LE get an XP Advantage, for people wearing their LE.
I for myself cannot see it. The Advantage, in my view, would only affect those that would like to remove the LE sooner or later, since they get to feel the difference between people that level without LE and those that level with it.
Everyone wanting to keep their Law Enforcer in the head, as far as I see it, should have no problem with it, because that person doesn't want to interact in PvP, so if those people advance a bit slower, they still advance the same speed with everyone else that wears LE, which are the people they can team with.

So I ask all people wearing LE, and of course also those that don't and see the difference it makes, for ARGUMENTS what the disadvantage is for LE wearers that want to keep the LE, if people without LE get an XP Advantage.

I repeat from the top: Please stick to arguments, leave mere likes/dislikes and similar opinions out of it.

I really think this should have kept in the brainport deus. It was doing nicely with the discussion there for the most part. However its for the mods to decide i guess.

'sticking to arguments' i have to ask you: why should Non-LEds have an exp-advantage over LEds? it's just a proposition you make. as far as i can see there is no need for Non-LEds to level up faster. it's just something you'd like to get. beyond all the advantages Non-LEds do have by now. i doubt you'll gain a majority vote on that. (and yes, i expect this thread to be moved to brainport pretty soon).

Its already in the brainport. its about BALANCING the advantages been having the LE in and not having it in torg. Go read the BP thread and you will see some very good valid arguments. You will also find some posts by chuck norris.

Anyway its been shown to have a large following in support by alot of people posting in the thread. i think that the brainport might not be seen by as many community members as here hence deus bringing it here.

Its not in the Brainport since its not an idea I have but its arguments about the issue I want to know.
Its not about how many community members see it, but it might still be different I guess.
In the thread in the Brainport there is much discussion if one wants that, why it should be and so on.
Hence the different thread here, where I ask for the impact it would have on non LE wearers.
Its just information I'd like to gather, and what I'd like to find out is different from the discussion in the brainport.

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Originally Posted by Deus Ex Machina

Its not in the Brainport since its not an idea I have but its arguments about the issue I want to know.
Its not about how many community members see it, but it might still be different I guess.
In the thread in the Brainport there is much discussion if one wants that, why it should be and so on.
Hence the different thread here, where I ask for the impact it would have on non LE wearers.
Its just information I'd like to gather, and what I'd like to find out is different from the discussion in the brainport.

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I take it back. a similar discussion is on the brainport.

Now i re-read your post your looking over it all you want the counterarguments why it shouldnt be granted. sorry. Yeah im curious to see too. however the brainport thread was kinda leaning that way. why or why not etc.

There are not any really valid counter arguments. Thats the whole point. Torg has tried to produce a counter argument but failed. There are a small number of benefits to removing the LE, this would be added to that list of benefits. It is not like those people who felt left out couldn't take out their LE's too and enjoy the same benefits as the rest of us.

Every time this discussion comes up the people who are against it spout off the same rehashed posts as the last time it came up. There is no argument to counter why this shouldnt be added. IT would be open to everyone to make the choice for themselves.

Its actually really hard to understand your argument

However people need to stop banging on about LE's else they may be in danger of sounding like certain in game clowns.

I don't think non LE's having a slight exp adv would be an issue but we have already started to see an increase in the number of people without an LE. The problem with LE's actually lies with things like MC5

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Originally Posted by William Antrim

There are a small number of benefits to removing the LE

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Actually, not being able to join a clan and losing an implant slot are pretty large disadvantages to having your LE in.:rolleyes:

It might be hard to understand, but some people just want to play the game, see the world, kill mobs, trade & interact with other players without getting constantly ganked, by some random asshole 20 or 30 levels higher than them. Why should they be disadvantaged by a lower XP gain? Or, to put it another way; why should you have a leveling advantage just because you took your LE out? You already have an extra brain-slot..

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Originally Posted by wargolem

The problem with LE's actually lies with things like MC5

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I agree.
How about making it so that MC5 parts farmed by people with an LE make implants that can only be used by LE wearers?

I like where you're coming from with that idea but I disagree I think MC5 should be a prestigious thing earned and only by those with their LE's out, I agree with you there are people that prefer the farming, trading aspect of the game and if they indeed want an MC5 chip they can use this extensive farming and trading to get one. MC5 farming and drops should be restricted to people with LE's out.

How this is accomplished is a completely new question however, other than zone checks for LE's (which afaik you can't do) or unlootable/untargatable for LE (possibly easier to implement) then i'm not sure how else to get there.

Thread #1003 about the LE. As william stated earlier

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Every time this discussion comes up the people who are against it spout off the same rehashed posts as the last time it came up.

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Every time this discussion comes up the people who are for it spout off the same rehashed posts as the last time it came up.

This is tiresome to read yet again. There are a ton of arguments for and against. I think the Dev team should worry about balance before they even consider coming close to the LE. It's rather counter-productive at this point in time.

Because right now unLE'd characters are leveling at a slower rate. Getting ganked and having to re-imp, and run back to where you were can be a major hit to xp/hour. You can say "Well keep your LE in". So now we're forced to be an LE character or suffer major XP loss? Cyberpunk/Post Apocalyptic genre is supposed to be dark, and dangerous and that's how I want the world to feel. LE's simply ruin immersion. I want the thrill of combat and to ACTUALLY HAVE A CHALLENGE. Why should WE be penalized? Where is the Risk vrs Reward which is often a fundamental idea behind combat games.


You don't want a fair system, you want a system that babies you.


(This is directed at no one specifically)

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Originally Posted by Strife

Because right now unLE'd characters are leveling at a slower rate. Getting ganked and having to re-imp, and run back to where you were can be a major hit to xp/hour. You can say "Well keep your LE in". So now we're forced to be an LE character or suffer major XP loss? Cyberpunk/Post Apocalyptic genre is supposed to be dark, and dangerous and that's how I want the world to feel. LE's simply ruin immersion. I want the thrill of combat and to ACTUALLY HAVE A CHALLENGE. Why should WE be penalized? Where is the Risk vrs Reward which is often a fundamental idea behind combat games.


You don't want a fair system, you want a system that babies you.


(This is directed at no one specifically)

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This.

Extra XP should be a benefit added to the list of benefits for us non-le'd. Especially the people trying to Woc a pe.

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Especially the people trying to Woc a pe.

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Friend WoC'd non LE PE. Pretty sure it nearly resulted in IRL suicide.

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Originally Posted by Conduit

It might be hard to understand, but some people just want to play the game, see the world, kill mobs, trade & interact with other players without getting constantly ganked, by some random asshole 20 or 30 levels higher than them. Why should they be disadvantaged by a lower XP gain? Or, to put it another way; why should you have a leveling advantage just because you took your LE out? You already have an extra brain-slot..

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Thanks, at least thats an argument. Still for the wrong side, since in the opening I asked for arguments concerning those that don't plan to take their LEs out, but still an argument :-)
So thanks.

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Originally Posted by Strife

Because right now unLE'd characters are leveling at a slower rate. Getting ganked and having to re-imp, and run back to where you were can be a major hit to xp/hour. You can say "Well keep your LE in". So now we're forced to be an LE character or suffer major XP loss?[...]

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Also thanks, its an argument too. But while i agree, and its my angle too, its still for the wrong side, because in that thread my interest lies on people not planning on taking it out, and how it would affect them.
But thanks for argumenting ;-)

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Originally Posted by Strife

Friend WoC'd non LE PE. Pretty sure it nearly resulted in IRL suicide.

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I know. There is only him and one another who have done it that I have seen. I am waiting for char transfer ideally before I bring mine.

If I recall correctly....the purpose of the LE was for people to get a handle on the game, make friends, and then take it out. It was used mainly as a tutorial and comfort device.

Cyberpunk, people.

I do agree with Deus ex Machina.
LE should have a penalty.

I have always leveled my character keeping LE in to remove it in the end. This is not right, if player want to go PvP in the end, they should start from beginning in my opinion.

this discussion thread is flawed from the beginning, as its confusing opinions with arguments. you cant start with a "i want things to change like this, now give me arguments against it". to get a vaild discussion - and i'm just assuming thats what you wanted - we'd need to name the problem, and look for possible solutions.

what is your problem, deus? why exactly do you want to encourage people removing the LE? dont you think this is a decision everyone has to do by themselves? i suppose you'd like to make everyone part of PvP, so we'd have more combat. but cant you imagine some people just dont want to take part in fights, for whatever reasons? do you want to force anyone, and risk driving them away from NC? what measures can you think of to let people play free of unconsented combat? do you care at all? please make your statement, so we can have a real discussion instead of just sharing opinions.

of course we can keep sharing simple opinions as long as we'd ever want to. but this wont benefit further development of this game. so?

Adding incentives to LE removal still leaves te player with 100% choice as to when or if its removed.

Remember the time you HAD to get a player kill to finnish the faction epic missions ? That forced players to remove LE, yet very few people complained about this 8years ago.

Im all for adding incentives since that does not force a player to do anything.

The points Torg so vehemently produces are utter bullshit to me.

Seems that you make a "retro engineering" version of the LE thread at brainport here, Deus^^

Same theme, but approach from the rear ?

1. Non-LE players prefer mostly pvp, belt hacking, loving clan memberships and op fights, sometimes ganking.
They have the advantage for beeing without LE that they can do all this.

2. LE Players (the ones which leave LE mounted all days) prefer a non-pvp-playstyle. Most this player collects and trades, makes (non fighting-)roleplay and plays this MMO even not beeing in a clan, what not automatical means that he is a LONE WOLF. They can play that way.
This player HAS disadvantages: no belt hack, no clan, no 4th imp slot.

Why we must change this ?

Because some people are missing targets ?

This rule simple is valid: a advantage for one party is automatically a disadvantage for the other one.

Some people obviously can not accept this game with a LE option. The reasons are obvious.

Reed

PS.. don't be mistaken: 7 of Reed's 8 chars on Mars are without LE :)

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Originally Posted by Torg

what is your problem, deus? why exactly do you want to encourage people removing the LE? dont you think this is a decision everyone has to do by themselves? i suppose you'd like to make everyone part of PvP, so we'd have more combat. but cant you imagine some people just dont want to take part in fights, for whatever reasons? do you want to force anyone, and risk driving them away from NC?

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Since it seems impossible to keep the opinions out of that thread, as well as the angry comments:

1) My problem is that people can't keep the discussion and opinions to another thread. I have stated myself and what I want clearly in several other threads. To anyone who really reads my posts it should be clear that I don't want to force anyone to take their LE out, and I have stated that explictly in one actual thread at least, and it should be clear from some of the others too.

2) In spite of wanting something specific though, I consider myself a person whose opinion can be swayed by well thought through arguments, and I also like to have a chance to view problems from the side I am not on, so thats why, before I post angrily that i want something this or other, I try to consider if there is merit to the view of the other side, that might be hidden by angry protesters, that don't discuss but only state what they want.

3) I opened that thread to gather the arguments how such a change might influence those that do not even want to take the LE at all. I have stated that very explicit. I wanted to find out if there are arguments I have overlooked, or a side of the problem I haven't thought of or heard of at all. In the end to find out for me if there is a problem between those that take LE out sooner and those that take it out later, or if the third group, those that don't take it out at all, are also influenced in a way that matters. Nothing more, nothing less.

4) As for your question why, well as i already stated: I won't discuss it in this thread, since thats not its purpose, although its offrail. It can be read in one of the other threads about that topic, or you can send me a PM, i will gladly elaborate.

P.S. Once again, for the almighty record: I do not want LE removed, nor anyone to be forced to remove it, nor do I want more targets, there are enough of them already if I want.
Seems I have to state that everywhere explicitly, otherwise every mention of that chip is considered a step of me of a forumwide crusade to exterminate every trace of LE in the known multiverse. *shakes head sadly*

The problem with the le is simply this: they are removed from the cyberpunk themed world. No worries in pp/oz. Runner interaction is the driving force in cyberpunk. These characters have reduced risk for the same rewards. If LE chars want to be safe then they need to do what corpies do: stick to protected corporate sectors. Make vr/plaza safe again, encourage le removal, and/or limit areas where players are actually safe from runners.

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Originally Posted by Deus Ex Machina

Since it seems impossible to keep the opinions out of that thread, as well as the angry comments:

1) My problem is that people can't keep the discussion and opinions to another thread. I have stated myself and what I want clearly in several other threads. To anyone who really reads my posts it should be clear that I don't want to force anyone to take their LE out, and I have stated that explictly in one actual thread at least, and it should be clear from some of the others too.

2) In spite of wanting something specific though, I consider myself a person whose opinion can be swayed by well thought through arguments, and I also like to have a chance to view problems from the side I am not on, so thats why, before I post angrily that i want something this or other, I try to consider if there is merit to the view of the other side, that might be hidden by angry protesters, that don't discuss but only state what they want.

3) I opened that thread to gather the arguments how such a change might influence those that do not even want to take the LE at all. I have stated that very explicit. I wanted to find out if there are arguments I have overlooked, or a side of the problem I haven't thought of or heard of at all. In the end to find out for me if there is a problem between those that take LE out sooner and those that take it out later, or if the third group, those that don't take it out at all, are also influenced in a way that matters. Nothing more, nothing less.

4) As for your question why, well as i already stated: I won't discuss it in this thread, since thats not its purpose, although its offrail. It can be read in one of the other threads about that topic, or you can send me a PM, i will gladly elaborate.

P.S. Once again, for the almighty record: I do not want LE removed, nor anyone to be forced to remove it, nor do I want more targets, there are enough of them already if I want.
Seems I have to state that everywhere explicitly, otherwise every mention of that chip is considered a step of me of a forumwide crusade to exterminate every trace of LE in the known multiverse. *shakes head sadly*

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*Big round of applause* :D

I couldnt agree more.

Its not about forcing the LE out the game its about encouraging people to make a choice without them being punished and showing them what they are missing.

Ultimately its them who have the choice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrruSboN1bQ <--- syndicate wars intro. Watch when the guys chip malfunctions. That to me is the best way i can explain having the LE in to not having it in. Its a whole different ball game.