Say one thing about the NC community, say they fight tooth and nails for what they believe is right.
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Say one thing about the NC community, say they fight tooth and nails for what they believe is right.
I think maybe you're trying to read too much into a simple statement Kame. I took it to mean that all weapons should be as good as each other up and down the scale.
....Because TL 75 is where the PvP weapons start. (Epic mission weapons) The GMs aren't stupid. They actually KNOW what the "pvp weapons" are. Hence, why they said TL 75. Letting you know from the epic weapons and up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kame
Anyway, yall can complain all yall want. The weapons are going linear, which means no more "best weapon for spies" - "best weapon for PEs" etc. No more OP'dness at all. End of discussion.
THOUGH, i definitely agree the dissy should be shortened to a 3-burst, and should be done before this DPM balancing is finalized. As I mentioned in one of my previous data-sheet posts, all prior versions are 3-shot bursts.
This was always going to be a divisive issue. I think we all knew that. It is an issue that is very close to all of our hearts.
who are you person above me? @sevendust
Before there is any dmg changes there needs to be other shit fixed first.
1) Stack dmg on the right weapons/spells (toxic/firebeam, devourer and other flamers, single shot lowtech pistols, pumpguns)
2) right weapon behavior, like disruptor 3 shots/fl 4 shots/executioner more dmg in close combat etc
3) tell the community exatly what the plans are... i see no point atm in testing sth cause everytime i login sth is shit, stackdmg/ionics etc
4) some weapons seem to hit though shilds harder than others... why is that? i only say disruptor 4 example atm on retail
i dont mind spending some days for balancing but i see no point in posting sheeds here with dmg vs mobs/none moving players. in a real fight eveything is different, how fast is a burst, can i swarp to stealth or put away the weapon for faster runspeed, how fast can i aim, is the weapon missing more with a open crosshair or not, take the cs atm, u dont need to have to close the crosshair on the opponent cause most of the time 3/4 bullets hit and even the ones that dont hit do dmg. Some bullets get lost when running around a corner, plasma/laser, and others hit instant, ak for example.
/flame on
What I've been desperatly trying to say, in my very own clumsy way is
START BY BALANCING GAMEPLAY ASPECT BEFORE YOU EVEN TOUCH WEAPONS/ARMOR/IMPLANTS.
Gameplay aspect are more important than numbers for competitive PVP.
Were all gonna use the most powerfull weapons at the end of the TL ladder anyways.
Have y'all never seen the Lion King? It's the CIRCLE of Life...not the Linear of Life!
You think these problems with the weapons occur because of damage...no sorry its because there are flaws or problems with the weapons themselves and the way they work. Its been like this forever and still no changes made...how many years will it take to finally listen to the community and fix the aspects of certain guns that cause them to be nerfed in pvp...like creed/ravager not registering damage on an enemy that is running, dissy needing to be 3 burst, first love 4 burst, increase shot frequency on wyatt earp to equal BHG, increase damage for freeman and xbow (or give xbow some stack damage), etc
(most wont agree on the changes I proposed up there but they are simply examples and my opinions)
All it is going to take is some dedication and listening...instead of this broad thread there should be an entire thread on specific weapons that will allow us to argue about ways to make them better in pvp.
Can I point out that one of the reasons people give up on neocron is because they do not want to level characters up to woc just to be able to fight...I know that is why we are trying to change the weapons but maybe we shud look at making neocron double xp all the time so its easier for people to level...at least on the old server everyone had everything with maxed out characters so the only thing left for them to do was pvp...it was easier for noobs to get their hands on weapons, money, etc...look how many people were playing before this new server and when the new server dropped (I remember around 20%)...now look at the population once this server had time to mature lol...I realize making leveling and getting slotted weapons hard appeases the tradeskillers that play this game but look at what that does to the population...now your left with a game that sees 6-7% and no one fighting...just trading all day =)
IF YOU WANT TO FIX NEOCRON WE NEED TO FIX THE BROKEN OR OUTDATED ASPECTS>>>PEOPLE PLAY NEOCRON FOR THE PVP NOT THE PVE!
Nope.mp3Quote:
Originally Posted by Tino
Yup.mp3
OP fighting has pretty much died on the server and look what happened to the population...
Yup..Quote:
Originally Posted by Tino
Honestly, only known PvP'ers should be allowed to have a voice in the balancing project.
Now that would be a circle jerk of epic proportions...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dropout
If you self-declared "pvp" folks would stop smelling your own brain-farts and get out of your ivory tower people would maybe start taking you seriously.
Please do not start with personal attacks =)Quote:
Originally Posted by Drachenpaladin
The problem is as I stated already that buffing guns on a case by case basis as you gents keep asking for is not going to give any weapon any advantage over any other. It is simply going to give us an even bigger mash up of the problems we already have. Wiping the slate clean (as is being done) is a clearly logical way to do it because it is the only proper way to approach the situation.
what if a mechanic was introduced the same as monks have at the moment - half reticle closed and you do half damage per gun - across all classes? this would solve one problem of unequal damage but it would cause outrage among some people. It would cause mayhem (not necessarily of the mike variety) among certain circles in the game. This is just one suggestion, just like the ones you guys have thrown out. But each of these suggestions has further deeper consequences to make certain guns overpowered or underpowered.
Ok so what if we did away with reticles altogether? That might appease some and others might cry outrage. Again its just another suggestion.
The point is you cannot just carry on saying YOU SHOULD DO THIS.... to stuff. It needs a wide open transparent plan of action that everyone who has an ounce of experience can chime in on. That way the suggestions can be evaluated, sanity-checked, picked over discussed and then possibly torn apart.
this is later on in the development cycle. This patch was never going to fix things overnight. It was and is the start of something new. Until such time as a scheme is fixed - this dpm balancing is just that - then there is no point looking at individual guns because you do not know where they fit in to the big picture.
Tossing out ideas and implementing them just for laughs is A) a waste of DEV time and B) the easiest way to make a new overpowered weapon system.
A template needs to be formulated with a rigid set of rules to stick to up and down the tech level tree. Anything other than that is just pure chaos and therefore a pile of shit that nobody wants to deal with.
Can't help but already feeling personally attacked by such kind of segregative and discriminating bile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tino
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dropout
William you do not read what others post. What Im saying is :
ADJUST GAMEPLAY MECHANICS RELATED TO PVP BEFORE YOU EVEN START LOOKING AT NUMBERS.
Think about it for one minute, if after you have made the DPM/TL curve linear, lets say you remove 1 shot from a weapon burst... Gone is the linear curve, need to redo again !!!
#brains
Will obviously thinks game play mechanics don't need to be fixed lol
With the new system at the foundation of all of this, that would automatically be balanced to compensate. The team would then fine tune the automatic value to ensure it fits in as expected. No drama. #CalmDownQuote:
Originally Posted by Kame
Let's be clear here...
With our (the NST) Balance Project we're building to a point where we can make these fine adjustments to individual weapons that everyone is shouting about. In an ideal world we would be bringing less useful/powerful stuff into contention. We'd also be toning down stuff which is over powered with minor tweaks but (it's a big but!) we still have the issue of a less than ideal foundation. Up to this stage we have managed to wrangle certain weapons back into line on Titan, things such as the Disruptor are now far more well behaved than they were. While we have done that, it was far more complex to make those changes than it should have been. For the sake of analogies I'd want to call it a rotten foundation but it's not that bad, the problem is that things are still significantly less than ideal.
We're fixing that foundation to make as solid a foundation as we can, then we'll be adding the layers back in, ending up in a place where we can easily tweak balance while also bringing a lot of diversity back to PvP. Ultimately that does mean there'll be a certain amount of re-education, just this time it will be how to spec for the weapon you want. Which you'd expect from any balance change. Not how entire new features work (like nanites and extra bits of armour).
To be absolutely clear about a reoccurring issue/problem/point:
Right now you're not testing that Weapon A is effective in PvP, or that Weapon B feels like it should be beefier or should fire faster or should have a larger clip. While we do want your comments on those things, what you're testing with this patch right now; is that the numbers we put in on our end match what come out on yours. That the foundation and corrections to our tools/Neocron's code work as expected and intended. We need to make sure issues in the under lying systems have been fixed (which is where the time has gone) and that issues in our assumptions from the first balance test (what we launched on Sparta) are corrected.
In short, right now: We're making sure you get coffee out of the machine and not tea when we fill it with coffee beans.
Bragi's post later on will give you a much wider view of where we're going. Regarding the argument about always simply using the highest TL weapon for the highest damage. That's not how it's going to work. Bragi's post later on will probably expand upon that. You'll end up with a far more varied system which lets you spec your character based on your tastes, not just because "Weapon of the Minute" is the defacto weapon for your class.
MODERATION NOTE: Stick to the facts, drop all the personal stuff and get back to constructive discussion. Those who fall out of line will see themselves on holiday from the forums for a few days.
Edit: To stop anyone panicking, I'm not on the balance team and have nothing to do with balancing PvP. I'm just familiar with the project internally as I'm nosey. :p
No I just think that your idea is flawed tino and i am giving reasons why behind it.
Kame as for your suggestion.....
#brains indeed. If you remove one shot from the burst then all you need to do is make the others do an equal amount of damage that the previous burst did.
If a weapon has 4 shots and you remove one but it used to do 100 damage then you can make it do the same damage over 3 shots (ok to make it divisible by 3 we would make it do 99 damage....). Problem fixed.
Simple maths.
Making all weapons hit all the time with a closed reticle IS the biggest issue I think you guys are trying to get at underneath all of the arguing. If thats the case then yes I agree completely. It doesnt retract from the fact you need a template though.
I think you will find you cannot argue with that logic.
I just want all the bugs fixed that prevent certain weapons from being used in pvp...you cannot argue with that logic.
We all do. Thats the whole point. Everybody wants the same end game. Everybody just has different views of how to get there. I just dont think the mad professor approach works.
Edit: waitin for Bragis post. :)
a discussion going nowhere, like so many times before. back to topic.
the current project/subproject is something that has never been tried before in the history of this MMORPG: getting statistical data as a basis for balancing, instead of tweaking according to guesses. NC was created and modified by a ridiculously small team (low 20ish headcount) and on an insecure financial background. Reakktor didnt die because of any ingame going-ons, but because its mother company 10tacle died by failed projects unrelated to KK. Bad luck. As i told you before i was working for (that-time) distributor CDV before NC was released and kept in touch with the matter for quite a while. By then they were discussing PvP as "endgame content", which was seen to be over-emphasized by parts of the the player community just because of the lack of other "endgame content". Because, you know, Neocron was written as an (MMO)-RPG, where you would level up through missions, trading and hunting, until... well, Neocron is still an unfinished game. Even DoY was supposed to be creating more endgame content by pitting 2 alliances against each other, instead of mere clan wars. We know this didnt work out perfectly. Since the "endgame content" didnt grow significantly, many players left, so mostly PvP-people are still ingame (youre welcome, dear guests).
What we need to do now is getting more data on all aspects of the game. The lore sung at the postnuclear hearthfires by seasoned PvP-ers is sadly based on individual and anecdotal experience and therefor may or may not apply to the majority of players. I think some of you (Kame?) already pointed this out. So we should be happy that the "scientist faction" within our community (i.e. brammers, sevendust and other NCnerds) are working on that.
I for one would have plenty of time after recovering from an over-exhausting election campaign (meatspace assignment) if not a serious case of eye surgery (retinal detachment. Status: fixed and recovering) did limit my screentime. It may take weeks or months until i'll return to active duty (i.e. pew-pew). In the meantime i shall contribute forum content occasionally, at least. So i'm counting on you to ninja Vedeena and harvest more information on our common arch enemy, the lich lord of leisuretime boredom, instead of getting into brawls over personal preferences in playing styles.
Who says statistical data is not gathered before any changes are made? Any changes that have been made to a weapon in the past I guarantee have had statistical data run for them. I agree that a base line should be made but that is AFTER the bugs for each weapon have been fixed and each weapon is in working order...so your telling me lets get base line statistical damage data for a broken weapon? Hahaha...the values are just gonna be screwed up once they decide to actually fix the weapon after the fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Torg
Lets spend all this time getting baseline statistical damage data using broken weapons...I promise that will not lead to broken baseline data =)
Edit: Forgot to mention that this was VS Launcher ClopsQuote:
Originally Posted by jj dynomite
Any bugs you know about with the weapons, please open a new thread in the bug reports forum - Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tino
There is no point in opening a new thread for bugs that have been known for years...for example the ravager and creed not registering damage on a moving target
Please don't assume that we know about the bugs, even if the bugs have been known for years. The more bug reports and information we get, then there is a better chance of us developing a fix.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tino
Your right I did assume this was common knowledge since the creed and ravager have not been used in pvp for a loooooong time...can I ask a serious question? Do the GMs even play NC?