Growing concern for server population

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Originally Posted by Sechs

O
Actually, people did step up - and were threatened with legal consequences almost immediately.
Stop being so goddamn ignorant.

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I was going to post something along these lines, there are plenty of people willing to to put forth time and effort or "step up" as it was put but they were flat out refused. GM Lykos was one of them, I know another programmer who has tried on numerous times to offer his services voluntarily but was either outright ignored or flat out denied. It seems like there is a small bubble of people that exist for the development of NC and they want to keep it that way.

I have absolutely no problem with the current voluntary staff, I think they are doing pretty good considering what they have to deal with but I think they should consider letting some more people in the club.

Sex yo fayses <3

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Originally Posted by Sechs

Oh, and you just happen to know the 'skill level' of every other person in here? This one goes right back at you.



Actually, people did step up - and were threatened with legal consequences almost immediately.
Stop being so goddamn ignorant.

+1 for eNTI.

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A directed dig, I'll admit. But the point still stands. No, I don't know others' skill level and I've never said I have any dev skill myself. But why is he complaining about it, when to our knowledge, he has no knowledge? Oh? He does know something about programming and the like? Well, then put it to good use and stop bitching about others' work.

And the people that did step up? While having good intentions, went about it the -wrong- way. Thats all I'll say about that.

If people have such a problem with the game, the devs, and their 'priorities'. Leave.

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Originally Posted by DarkPhoenix

A directed dig, I'll admit. But the point still stands. No, I don't know others' skill level and I've never said I have any dev skill myself. But why is he complaining about it, when to our knowledge, he has no knowledge? Oh? He does know something about programming and the like? Well, then put it to good use and stop bitching about others' work.

And the people that did step up? While having good intentions, went about it the -wrong- way. Thats all I'll say about that.

If people have such a problem with the game, the devs, and their 'priorities'. Leave.

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While i agree with your passion in defending the game and those who are developing it voluntarily i wouldn't be so fast as to tell people to leave. The game is on life support, people leaving is not what you want because remember why develop a game when there is no players.

I assume there is a forum for constructive dialogue between the team and folk that want to help?

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Originally Posted by DarkPhoenix

A directed dig, I'll admit. But the point still stands. No, I don't know others' skill level and I've never said I have any dev skill myself. But why is he complaining about it, when to our knowledge, he has no knowledge? Oh? He does know something about programming and the like? Well, then put it to good use and stop bitching about others' work.

And the people that did step up? While having good intentions, went about it the -wrong- way. Thats all I'll say about that.

If people have such a problem with the game, the devs, and their 'priorities'. Leave.

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Well, what's the 'correct way'? Enlighten me. Last time I checked, there was none.
There's no public bug tracker, exploit discussion is strictly forbidden. Report an exploit? Copy/pasted reply.
Have a technical question about the server? Can't help you with that. Someone I know recommended to change parts of the EULA.
Not the rules, just the wording. Less room for interpretation. Obviously, it wasn't changed. It's that much more fun to have people fight over these rules on a daily basis.

You know, the only time I got involved (read: involved myself) was when I replaced all the new evo-bs weapons/sounds/textures with their NC1 counterparts. The account was banned later on, but who cares? It was possible - about four hours of work, including figuring out how to read/parse the .def files, as well as how the GFX System works, but possible nonetheless. It was actually more fun than playing the damn game.

TL:DR;
People would put their skills to good use, if there was a way to do so.
Instead, we get a prime example of what happens, when you go all-ego about something.


@ Darkener

Well, people are already leaving. I doubt that DarkPhoenix is responsible for that. :P
And no, there is no forum. There's a brainport, stuffed with ideas that are yet to be implemented.
Everything else happens via Email. Or... well, it's supposed to happen.

Well, population will go up by +1 soon... Thought about NC for the first time in about 5 years last week, came here and dusted off the old account. Still the same old chat then - moaning about server population, bugs and stuff. I remember talk of another MMORPG (that shall not be named) and how it was better. Well, done loads of other games and none compare.

Time sharpen the combat knife and stab some rats in the sewer...

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Originally Posted by Sechs

Report an exploit? Copy/pasted reply.

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And you expect a personally signed letter of gratitude from the entire dev team, Kirk and Prince Charles everytime you do what is simply your duty?

The best thing for Neocron would be to release the server code to the community. Let us be serious for a second. The only reason they haven't done this yet is because there is still somewhat glimmer of hope that money can still be via subscriptions or some other donation item methods. There wouldn't be a huge influx of new players to Neocron generating revenue. It would just be a tax on the current very small population enjoys the game now. The staff has run off so many old players with zero chance of returning to anything of a current state. If you want real results let the community put up its own server and work on the code themselves.

You might combat me with "there would be no point, the population is already small what would a bunch of tiny private servers do for it". People would go to the best run server where the bugs are fixed, cheaters are taken care of swiftly and problems are taken care of quickly. I know this ain't everyones first rodeo when it comes to playing online games and even maybe for some of you have played older games run on private servers. (ie Ultima Online, SWG, ect ect). You can either do what's best for the community or you could do what's best for yourself.

Releasing the server code would create competition. You want people on your server? Better step your game up. I believe for the past couple years the saying "Good enough for government work" has been the mentality of not only the staff but the community as well.

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Originally Posted by MayhemMichael

The best thing for Neocron would be to release the server code to the community. yadda yadda...

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The result would be: 3 crappy maintained and soon abandoned projects and a few more servers just for horrible modding attempts lulz and hax.

I don't trust anybody here in the com to pull off anything seriously with the source code. Period. There is just no proof that anybody here could work properly on the project and in a serious manner.

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Originally Posted by Drachenpaladin

The result would be: 3 crappy maintained and soon abandoned projects and a few more servers just for horrible modding attempts lulz and hax.

I don't trust anybody here in the com to pull off anything seriously with the source code. Period. There is just no proof that anybody here could work properly on the project and in a serious manner.

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Except for the fact that someone already did. I don't understand why you are so hostile against it. What do you have to lose? nothing. What do you have to gain? Everything.

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Originally Posted by MayhemMichael

Except for the fact that someone already did.

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Which is EXACTLY why i have no faith in any plans regarding making NC open source. Too much anarchy and problems with authority among the peeps here.

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Originally Posted by Drachenpaladin

Which is EXACTLY why i have no faith in any plans regarding making NC open source. Too much anarchy and problems with authority among the peeps here.

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What are you on about man? We are talking about making Neocron as great as humanly possible and you accuse people that are wanting to help or see some change anarchists and criminals. Take a look at yourself. You are the problem. We aren't talking about leaking nuclear launch codes or the secret to cold fusion energy here.

This thread will probably get locked real soon.

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Originally Posted by hatmankh

This thread will probably get locked real soon.

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And that's the sad part.

Well... I posted this thread a couple of months back now, and it's great to see its prompted such discussion, I know for one I've not logged in for a while now!

The class I know and love has broken since my return in November last year, I very much doubt it'll fixed by this November!

I wished I'd of chance to play on the 3rd party server to see what improvements had been made!

I don't want a bunch of private servers dividing the community right now but I'm relieved to know some people have the capability to make one. Because when the inevitable happens, kirk/the volunteers finally get tired of throwing their money down a black hole and pull the plug. A new neocrack dealer or two will emerge.

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Originally Posted by eNTi

being extra nice and lying/sucking up to them because they volunteer doesn't really help them or the game to progress. i don't really care if you agree with my methods, maybe the devs appreciate some honesty. if you don't care for my comments just put me on ignore. it's as simple as that.

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Enti, you are not in the position to tell the dev team anything about their work after all your bitching and moaning on the forums over the last 6+ months.

What have you done for Neocron other than writing noob threads on the forum?

All your threads and comments in the last 6 months revolved around this:

1.) Comments and threads about how you need the LE and only want to do PvE and be left alone

2.) A thread about how you did man up at least and removed your LE and got ganked at MB while leveling without an LE and how badly designed this game is because of that

3.) A thread about how PvP sucks so much in NC because you get killed all the time

4.) A thread about how bad the OP fights are because you suck at it

5.) And now your stance is to tell everybody in your comments how bad the Volunteers team is and how Neocron sucks because of this

You're really getting on my nerves now, man. I never wrote anything to you directly nor did I answer your comments cause I didn't think it's worth it but now it's enough. Enti, you suck so much that my balls hurt.

I hope that Zoltan never even slightly considers to let somebody like you work on Neocron's code. Somebody who plays a game like Neocron the way you did Enti cannot be a good game designer and programmer ever.

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Originally Posted by Ascension

Well... I posted this thread a couple of months back now, and it's great to see its prompted such discussion, I know for one I've not logged in for a while now!

The class I know and love has broken since my return in November last year, I very much doubt it'll fixed by this November

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Dude, if your concern was really the server population let me repeat one more time the first answer you got from some of the oldest comm members: It's summer in Germany.

The weather in Germany hasn't been so good since 2006, I think. We had almost 40 degrees on some days over the last weeks.

I promise you there will be more players again after the summer.

I really hope that your "concerns" are eased now if that is all that you wanted to know.

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Originally Posted by MayhemMichael

Except for the fact that someone already did. I don't understand why you are so hostile against it. What do you have to lose? nothing. What do you have to gain? Everything.

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Fuck private servers, dude. I don't want to be at the mercy of some random 14 year old dude in his basement and his hard feelings towards his mama. Forget it. And I don't want the fucking code leaked to every idiot script kiddie out there to tinker with it and make themselves uber in the game whenever they feel like it.

I prefer a calm development in a single hand. So please don't discuss that shit here. Nobody who's clear in their mind wants fucking private servers. There should not even be a single thought about it.

If we really want to help NC we should donate. Maybe some day that will be possible if an E.V. can be set up, the german equivalent to a charity organization.

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Originally Posted by SilentEye

My vision of where Neocron is heading;

The support crew will continue to provide support by balancing, patching and mopping up the game. People will continue to play in current numbers. Some new content may come, while the game is slowly brought to a solid structure. End.

I don't see Neocron going public to the extend where profit can be generated. I don't see the support team setting up tools to generate an income or receive donations.

Neocron is an old but great platform that many still enjoy very much. New people are still coming in while older people are still leaving. The support crew will continue to support this game as they enjoy (I hope) working on it and playing it.

To quote DarkPhoenix for anyone that complains the support crew isn't doing enough:

If you can do better, step up. If not, piss off.

/me loves Neocron and all of the people that currently play it. I love jumping in for a NeoCast while seeing all the great people chill about by going out of their way to come and party, etc. Neocron has an amazing community.

But am I really cruel, cold, mean or negative when I say that I don't think Neocron will become greater in the sense of players, Steam potential, revenue potential, than it is right now?

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No, you are not. Everything you said is absolutely correct. This is the status at the moment and that's how it looks like for the near future.

Anybody who thinks something else is either an idiot or suffers from delusion.

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Originally Posted by Ivan Eres

Dude, if your concern was really the server population let me repeat one more time the first answer you got from some of the oldest comm members: It's summer in Germany.

The weather in Germany hasn't been so good since 2006, I think. We had almost 40 degrees on some days over the last weeks.

I promise you there will be more players again after the summer.

I really hope that your "concerns" are eased now if that is all that you wanted to know.

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My concerns were a little shallow at the time of posting if I'm honest, there far more troublesome problems with the game than low population.

Issues that lead to a viscous circle of people leaving die to problems not being fixed, balancing not being address. Such as a complete class being so flawed its not so fun to play.

I could sit here and type in detail regarding issues but they've been brought up time and time again. I simply don't have the inclination to go into detail.

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Originally Posted by Ivan Eres

I hope that Zoltan never even slightly considers to let somebody like you work on Neocron's code. Somebody who plays a game like Neocron the way you did Enti cannot be a good game designer and programmer ever.

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interesting conclusion.

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Originally Posted by Ivan Eres

No, you are not. Everything you said is absolutely correct. This is the status at the moment and that's how it looks like for the near future.

Anybody who thinks something else is either an idiot or suffers from delusion.

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do you by any chance know the word "circlejerk"?


yes it's OBVIOUSLY very hot atm and some people will be back eventually but only until they realize that meanwhile nothing much has changed they will immediately leave again.

in the end it probably won't matter how many people keep playing or how long it takes to reach certain goals. they got no time pressure whatsoever. when they are done, they are done and maybe neocron will be a better experience in a few years, or maybe we finally get a nc3. who knows. i'm just sad it can't be sooner.

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Originally Posted by Ascension

I could sit here and type in detail regarding issues but they've been brought up time and time again. I simply don't have the inclination to go into detail.

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... and don't you dare criticise anything. especially not in detail.

yes that was sarcasm.

If anyone here doubts the ability of community-driven development, they need to do two things:

1) Become a part of the linux community.
2) Read up about Valve/Steam & their struggles with Workshop/Greenlight.

There are many lessons to be learned in both realms, but the key factor is this- A entire community of hobbyists will outpace quantity and quality of content when compared with a group of professionals. They will self-regulate, and they will band together despite their differences.

The only reason to keep source private is to totally control development & protect IP.

Also, private servers tend to significantly increase overall population, not decrease.

UO is the easiest game to point to for success with this, but many many FPS's learn this between releases. Bottom line, some people will only play the game if they can play it their way.

I also want to point out that in no way am I having a go at the devs. It's quite obvious that Neocron would not be here today if it wasn't for the hard work and determination of the volunteer staff to keep it going for the community. It's actually quite the feat.

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Originally Posted by Divide

The only reason to keep source private is to totally control development & protect IP.

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... and you really believe that the volunteers have a say in IP matters?
Releasing NC as open source is, even without considering the huge legal fubar involved (right of use/distribution for artwork, licenses etc.) not something Kirk will do. He said on multiple occasions that he believes the brand still has value (most here would agree) and while that is the case, be it imagined or real, no such thing is gonna happen.

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... the linux community

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the linux community is in fact a prime example of how fragmentation can become a problem. look at the current display server debate or the still abysmal hw vendor support. the same work is done over and over, where combining the efforts would likely be more efficient.

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Also, private servers tend to significantly increase overall population, not decrease.

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Overall population is worth little when it is spread out to thin. Remember the old days of 4 dying servers (3 of them practically dead in the water).

Don't get me wrong, I agree that anything that helps to get NC the amount of care it deserves and needs would be great. While I have nothing but respect for the volunteers contribution and continued dedication, I fear that for the challenges ahead, the current structure will not suffice. Guess we'll see how Sparta pans out. *fingers crossed*

Whilst getting multiple dev teams to work on it might produce something good in the long run, as has been pointed out already, the server population can't support it. You need the density to stop the ghost town feel 24/7.

Hats off to those working on it now!

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Originally Posted by aKe`cj

... and you really believe that the volunteers have a say in IP matters?
Releasing NC as open source is, even without considering the huge legal fubar involved (right of use/distribution for artwork, licenses etc.) not something Kirk will do. He said on multiple occasions that he believes the brand still has value (most here would agree) and while that is the case, be it imagined or real, no such thing is gonna happen.



the linux community is in fact a prime example of how fragmentation can become a problem. look at the current display server debate or the still abysmal hw vendor support. the same work is done over and over, where combining the efforts would likely be more efficient.



Overall population is worth little when it is spread out to thin. Remember the old days of 4 dying servers (3 of them practically dead in the water).

Don't get me wrong, I agree that anything that helps to get NC the amount of care it deserves and needs would be great. While I have nothing but respect for the volunteers contribution and continued dedication, I fear that for the challenges ahead, the current structure will not suffice. Guess we'll see how Sparta pans out. *fingers crossed*

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Well I suppose 1 dying server is better than 4.

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Originally Posted by Drachenpaladin

And you expect a personally signed letter of gratitude from the entire dev team, Kirk and Prince Charles everytime you do what is simply your duty?

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Stop acting like a 13yo fanboy.
No, I do not expect them to write a letter.
Also, it is not my duty, just as isn't their duty to improve the game, as multiple people in this threadhave stated.

What I do expect is an actual fix. What I do expect is that they care about these reports. After all, they're volunteers. If you volunteer for a position, it implies an actual love for what you're doing. If you report something to a GM, the first thing he'll say is something along the lines of 'write to exploit@neocron.com'. Yes, I could do that. Instead, I probably won't. Why? Because 99,9% of the time, I get their nice little paste and then that's that. Out of numerous things that have been properly reported by me and/or friends, not one has seen a fix.

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I don't trust anybody here in the com to pull off anything seriously with the source code. Period. There is just no proof that anybody here could work properly on the project and in a serious manner.

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Oh, and why is there no proof? Could it be because people were threatened with lawsuits? Also, what on earth makes you think that the people working on the game now are any more qualified than somebody in here? Do you know them personally? Have you looked at their code? I doubt it, so stop making assumptions about the abilities of other people. Clearly, you have absolutely no basis for that.

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Which is EXACTLY why i have no faith in any plans regarding making NC open source. Too much anarchy and problems with authority among the peeps here.

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You're seriously talking about authority? The authority to grant certain players woc 5, as soon as the server went up for the first time, perhaps? You know what would happen, if they open-sourced NC? A couple servers would emerge. Some would be better than others. Eventually, most would disappear and one or two would be popular. Why? Because they wouldn't abuse their power, because they would fix stuff, because they would deserve to be where they are. Obviously, this isn't going to happen but it's not because of the reasons you stated. It's about being the boy who doesn't like to share his toys.

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Originally Posted by Ivan Eres

Fuck private servers, dude. I don't want to be at the mercy of some random 14 year old dude in his basement and his hard feelings towards his mama. Forget it. And I don't want the fucking code leaked to every idiot script kiddie out there to tinker with it and make themselves uber in the game whenever they feel like it.

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I hope that Zoltan never even slightly considers to let somebody like you work on Neocron's code

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a) Then don't play on a server that's hosted by a 14yo. Simple as that.
b) Do you seriously believe people need the full source to do so? It would certainly help, but it's far from being a requirement.
c) If you seriously believe that that decision is up to Zoltan, I really don't know what to say. You know, there's something called reality. It's said to be cold and harsh, but you should try it once in a while.

This Sechs guy gets it.

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Originally Posted by Sechs

Stop acting like a 13yo fanboy.
No, I do not expect them to write a letter.
Also, it is not my duty, just as isn't their duty to improve the game, as multiple people in this threadhave stated.

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If i act like a 13yo fanboy then you act at least like a mad little girl who got dumped for the first time. Or in short: You are butthurt to the max. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Sechs

What I do expect is an actual fix. What I do expect is that they care about these reports. After all, they're volunteers. If you volunteer for a position, it implies an actual love for what you're doing. If you report something to a GM, the first thing he'll say is something along the lines of 'write to exploit@neocron.com'. Yes, I could do that. Instead, I probably won't. Why? Because 99,9% of the time, I get their nice little paste and then that's that. Out of numerous things that have been properly reported by me and/or friends, not one has seen a fix.

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Still don't get why you are mad about standardized replies but meh. And forgive me my "fanboyishness" if I believe Alduins recent post where he states that shit isn't so easily to fix like it looks on the first look. Again, wtf do you expect the GMs to do when they receive a bug report/exploit? They take it and put it on th pile of yet to finish stuff. What would YOU do in that situation? Bend out of shape to give everyone the impression that all their reports will bear results until the next weekend at latest?

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Originally Posted by Sechs

Oh, and why is there no proof? Could it be because people were threatened with lawsuits? Also, what on earth makes you think that the people working on the game now are any more qualified than somebody in here? Do you know them personally? Have you looked at their code? I doubt it, so stop making assumptions about the abilities of other people. Clearly, you have absolutely no basis for that.

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Well, if you are so inclined about qualifications, what are yours? What enables you to contribute to Neocrons development at any end? Or to measure the efforts have been made. Oh yeah.. let me guess, lawsuit
Anyways, i assume you did look at the source code then? Or your friends? Any assumptions about the abilities of other people that can prove your points further?

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Originally Posted by Sechs

You're seriously talking about authority? The authority to grant certain players woc 5, as soon as the server went up for the first time, perhaps? You know what would happen, if they open-sourced NC? A couple servers would emerge. Some would be better than others. Eventually, most would disappear and one or two would be popular. Why? Because they wouldn't abuse their power, because they would fix stuff, because they would deserve to be where they are. Obviously, this isn't going to happen but it's not because of the reasons you stated. It's about being the boy who doesn't like to share his toys.

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Let me guess, proof of nepotism = lawsuit? Feel free to outfit me with anything via PM.

Anyway, in short words for you: I don't trust any bunch of punks to get anywhere useful with the source code of NC. Where are people that set up a emulated server or sniff around in game files any more trustworthy as the people currently instated?