i bet any speed change will come in small, cautious steps.
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i bet any speed change will come in small, cautious steps.
Personally i am fine with people running as fast as they like, so long as the server is keeping up with them.
I havent pvp'd since comming back from the game outside of a bit of neofrag. However in checking out PVP by watching from buildings it seems its all about run speed. Having seen a few specs of people on nskill it seems about 95% speed with maybe a drug or 2 on as well sends your character in to a "skip mode" what makes their character run around a bit then suddenly slow for a second then run 3X the speed they normally can for a couple of seconds as the server seems to be catching up with them.
This of course makes targetting them with weapons that need to lock on very very hard, and with APU spells having more dmg based on how locked on you are it means apus seem to be a rare thing with h-c tanks, some rifle spys and loads of ppus as the only things that show up in op wars.
So in essence if they want a soft cap i am happy with that, but those who go beyond it of course could reduce the ammount of speed lost by having their weapons out.
Or maybe passed a certain point you dont gain as much speed as before this point, so diminished returns.
The trouble with either option is setting a value that doesnt make it to easy to hit people and then high con resists become king and apus and spys become worse because they are now easier to hit and have no resists for when they do.
The option i will throw out there is maybe have aiming get worse the faster you are moving.
So we have a person who on nskill is at say 70 speed. Stationary his target ret is say 3cm wide as is for everyone. if walking it goes up to 3.5cm, if running 4.5cm or whatever the normal is.
Now a person with 90 speed stationary is 3cm, walking maybe 3.7cm, running 5.5cm.
These are random numbers and the speed in which the target lock on closes would of course be down to your aiming skill and staying on the target, but with a larger circle it means that you would need longer to fully lock on to the target.
Again though with the above it could end up penalising people for being fast and people would look for sweet spots on the speed to mean they didnt get as much penalty. So the negative would need to happen only after X ammount of speed rather than vs any movement.
I swear this thread is going crazy and people are trying to over complicate things. I don't like quoting myself but I think people need reminded of the simple option that appeared to work in nc1 & 2.
Please bear in mind that, we also really need weapon damage balanced so that resists and armor work as they should.Quote:
Originally Posted by Netphreak
I hAve alot of notes on setups. I also know the best fighting setups. point being, runspeed to compliment your style is the first choice you make. then you choose the best resists you feel comfortable with. All that after choosing a gun i should have said. The current patch changed runspeed to hyperspeed. the balance before was very well done even after looking last things like the dissy. Change runspeed because the pvp sucks now. you are either fast as fuck and top 5% aim...or you get wasted. not exactly a good environment for building pvp.
I have a Fraps video of a fight between me and a very good PvPer (melee tank vs HC tank) which lasted somewhere around 20 minutes. During the fight, he had to go buy more ammo (twice I think), and I had to fill my melee tanks QB up with stam boosters three times. We were both so incredibly fast that we couldn't hit one another. We ended up getting bored and calling it a day when both of our second lot of drugs wore off.
Even if I managed to land 6-8 consecutive swings with the hurler knuckles and he landed a couple of shots with the ionic cannon, a simple burst of the heal tool and a medikit and you're outhealing any incoming damage as long as you keep the stamina up, and keep moving.
As it stands right now, speed is everything. Speed should not be THE most important factor in determining the result of a fight, but it really is. I don't even see slower players as a threat any more. Even if a person's aim is superb they're going to struggle hitting a melee tank with a runspeed of 102 (NSkill v2) who knows how to move erratically. Even if they do the impossible and land 50% of their shots, their slower speed will mean I land more like 80% of my shots, and they die.
I'd love to see what a true runspeed softcap does to the PvP dynamics.
Edited by Falk.exe
The thing is that the dynamics of PVP gameplay has drastically changed, since the current runspeed was implemented.
We went from a slow-moving game, where aiming was more important than dodging, to a fast-moving game, were dodging is more important than anythig else.
The PVP gameplay needs to be streamlined and emphasis needs to be put in resists again. The PVP gameplay shouldnt change in such huge leaps.
Why is this not completely fkn obvious to the devs? What's the point of this thread? To give us something to talk about while they work on changes they are already making?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kame
Then neither of you are good pvpers :)Quote:
Originally Posted by L0KI
sorry dude to allow reality to crash around you, but to say something like that with no backup and then allow 20 min fight to happen is a joke. It's almost as bad as Arrista barret claiming he knows all the best setups.
forcing soft caps is not something I would like to see in this game, i think it does make the game easier and appeal to more people but I think the issue is that It also blurrs the line between good bad and average players that little bit more.
The changes suggested on brainport I would argue are so much better than people asking for a runspeed cap, Particulary people looking at ways of re-implementing para and making freeze weapons useful, obviously tuned down from what it was. That, in my opinion is the best option for the future.
the line should be blurred. the distinction between good player and better fighter should not be so far apart. When i say i know the best setups...i am referring to the setups used by the guys who walk into fight zones and cannot be ran off. they are the best fighting the best. i do have their setups written down. the only reason to hide your awesome setup is because you are haxx imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by wargolem
Sorry Loki, But I have to agree with Wargolem here.. A one vs. one should NEVER last 20 mins..Quote:
Originally Posted by wargolem
"Max-speed" setup vs. "Max-speed" setup (which are the fights, that last the longest usually) should at the VERY most last 3-4 mins.
Cap run speed imo, different per class? CHEATERS are way to powerful with insane run speed
I would edit that message if I were you..Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Norris
Anyways.. No, Im very much against a hard-cap, but I think a soft-cap would be a very good idea.
Why its true?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dropout
Perhaps. But it is still not something to talk about on the forum..Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Norris
Not only is it not allowed, it is also bad for the game (newbs seeing threads like this, can quickly start to fear the worst).
Mod; feel free to delete this reply if needed.
BS, its a problem regardless how you feel. Dont ignore it, thats basically why this thread was started i suspect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dropout
I think walker is talking shit. 4 speed drugs will make any fast setup get to the warp-choppy state in which we ser a lot of runners nowadys.
As I said before, people see what people are. Chomp on this for a few mins Walker.
Indeed. PvP viability needs to be a choice between speed, resists and damage (with player skill layered over the whole lot).Quote:
Originally Posted by L0KI
As it is, going for the latter two is not a 'viable' option.
It also doesn't help when some weapons are insane. I got into a fight with a dizzy spy the other day: I have 60 resist energy (don't have a PPR at the moment), 70 energy armour (more on the body), PE shields and I still dropped in less than one clip.
And this is why Im against any sort of speed nerf before some sort of balancing..Quote:
Originally Posted by Dribble Joy
@Kame: Im not sure what your talking about? Is it that I said that a one vs. one should last more than a couple of minutes? It shouldnt.. Even when my enemies have a ppu up their ass, it rarely takes longer than that.. Its only the fights where there is multiple people it starts to take longer, since your reticle keeps on getting fucked by others..
Actually i was adressing chuck norris, so disregard that, dropout.
Ah fair enough, dont call him Walker then! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kame
So aslong as Neocron wants to stay a logical no more elves Game - There should be a softcap runspeed but within limitations of their class and that would need a certain point of balancing classes as a whole.
I'll explain:
Tank: A brute and big genetically enhanced warmachine - strong and very good resistance against DMG. So let the Tank be the sturdiest and strongest character in-game with the best armor and DMG mitigation. It's only logical that he cant be the fastest in-game. His DMG should be above average
Spy: a thin, intelligent and extraordinary dexterous class that is supposed to use the strongest Pistols/rifles/drones in-game. As long as agility is in the Dexterity Skill -> he should be the fastest character possible - although he is a very good DMG-Dealer - he should be the weakest as it comes to DMG-Mitigation.
PE: The average Joe : average in everything but he's don't superior in any Skill. So he should be a little faster than a gen-tank, as he has more Dex. he is supposed to be the low-tech-king.
Monk: slow and weak - but he is incredible powerful in PSI and Intelligence - should be the slowest and weakest class but also the class with the most DMG in-game possible
Idea is simple: We should set a realistic run-speed soft-cap so the more you skill in AGI/ATL the less its effective. BUT - the main skills DEX and CON - should be a factor that goes as well as AGI/ATL and weight in our calculation for Run-speed.
So if we conclude that 100 DEX and 100 Agility and 100 CON and 100 ATL are the fastest possible run-speed with a soft-cap at 75% at the values we set before. This would mean the best you could archive is 100% but it would be very expensive - in terms of economical skill distribution a value between 75% and 100% would be the best choice but would get less and less effective on the way to 100%.
i think humanly possible would be a runspeed of 35mph in the far future of the 29th century.
As Usain Bolt the fastest Sprinter known today reaches nearly 28mph it should give us an idea.
first: Running Away (if loosing - lame,boring and not very explainable that a character near death could easyl escape with warpspeed)
second: The fastest char wins, as he's nearly/impossible to hit
third: there is no way to slow down a char with a spell/weapon except hitting their legs (aslong as you cant hit them in the legs they cant be slowed) - we need slows, stuns and debuffs to provide a suitable PvP expirience.
What do the 3 Things above mean: The faster classes dominate and they fear a balancing, because they do have an unfair advantage right now.
NC should provide good gameplay/gametactics/skillsetups for everyone and not for just one good nearly unbeatable setup of one class that easily kills everything else.
What the dev team should implement:
1 .softcap the runspeed
2. after that find a way to slow down fights
3.PvP consists of tactic, Aiming, DMG mitigation through skills/armor, slowing down the enemy and kill him (thats how it should be)
today PvP just consists of aiming and movement (no more resistance setups, armor is more or less useless as it get shot through after the first pair of hits)
4. Consider to get Endurance more in the calculation (the faster you run, the earlier you run out of endurance - except you have many points in endurance)
just my two cents
You forgot the monk. Just low dex/con. :)
People who are near death naturally slow down.
We do NOT need slows/stuns etc as you said.
APUs should be akin to spies in terms of damage output/resistances.
speedcapping runspeed will naturally slow down the fights without any further need.
One thing at a time bro.
These are my immediate reactions to your post. The rest of it I liked.
Personally I would like to see drawn weapons have a runspeed nerf if nothing else. I think Tanks (having the best damage soak ability) should be the slowest. However I do not want to see anyone nerfed.
People who are near death naturally slow down.
We do NOT need slows/stuns etc as you said.
Its a tactical element and it should be possible to slow down or stun for a short duration of time
APUs should be akin to spies in terms of damage output/resistances.
No, Spys cant do the same High DMG except they spare their runspeed - but it is unlikely a spy would take a bit more dmg to reach the APU-DMG and spare the quickness
speedcapping runspeed will naturally slow down the fights without any further need.
it wont slow down fights - it will make them faster as before as the people will get hit again - only the movements would be slower - thats a big difference
One thing at a time bro.
I agree - but we need to find a start
These are my immediate reactions to your post. The rest of it I liked.
Personally I would like to see drawn weapons have a runspeed nerf if nothing else. I think Tanks (having the best damage soak ability) should be the slowest. However I do not want to see anyone nerfed.
i think we already have a runspeedmalus on drawn tank weapons (my tank slows down if i draw a cannon and its totally fine - next thing to do - considerate the runspeedmalus of a drawn weapon if your skills let it barely use it - the runspeedmalus would be great - if you would exceed the required skills of the weapon by far - the runspeedmalus should decrease
that are my ideas on your thoughts :)
Stuns kill pvp. No dude. Been there done that. Dead against it.
- APU and Spy have different damage output due to their skillset (PSI vs Dex) but I bet you a pound to a pinch of shit their con set ups and agility stats will be akin to one another. Hence why I made the comment. Look at their stat distribution. Apu has less strength and more con but all in all they are as close to one another as they can be.
I am not gonna attempt to decipher your comment about runspeed.
Runspeed malus based on the overspeccing requirement to use a weapon - a MASSIVE NO from me. Too complicated to work out and scale. Just have a simplistic flat cap and go from there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dropout
this too!
No it would be a fucking noob-I-Win spell..Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathCultLegion
Ever since Para was removed, it has been possible to do 1 vs 10-20 (depending on their skill ofc) fights, and come out on top. With slowdowns or even worse stuns, as you mention, this would no longer be possible..
Without Para/stun, the game can keep on being a game where you need SKILL to win.
If run speed was soft capped again, then the run speed malus with a drawn would work again as intended, rather than being trivial like it is now.