Weapon Discussion Refinement

[Thanatos]

Overview and special considerations


Overview:

In the last post we presented the general factors influencing the weapon balancing – however we’d like to present them again, this time going into more detail:

Influence Factors for Weapon Balancing:
-Damage-Output (per shot)
-Aim precision (size of the reticule)
-Aim speed
-Firing frequency
-Range
-Capacity (clip size)
-Ammo usage per shot (ammo, stamina, PSI)

When calculating the damage per shot, time is being factored in, meaning the duration of a shot or the duration of the reloading process.

We have also weighed the weapon types by these factors – the first item in a list always represents 100%.

Damage-Output (per shot):
-APU Weapons (100%)
-Cannons (90%)
-Rifle (80%)
-Pistol (75%)
-Melee Weapons (65%)

Damage-Output (per time unit):
-APU Weapons
-Melee Weapons
-Cannons
-Pistols
-Rifles

There is a bonus system that mainly applies to damage output (but also to some other factors), which applies to all weapon types:
-Bonus: HighTech (+ 7.5%)
-Bonus: Rare (+ 10.0 %)
-Bonus: Epic (+ 12.5 %)
-Bonus: WoC (+ 15.0 %)

The bonus for high-tech is additive – for the other statuses only one applies.

Aim precision (size of the reticule – Min | Max):
-APU Weapons (1.50 | 3.00)
-Pistols (1.75 | 4.00)
-Rifles (2.00 | 5.00)
-Cannons (3.00 | 8.00)

Please note: higher values are worse.

This is based on the following reticule sizes:
-Minimal: ~ 1.50 * size
-Maximal: ~ 8.00 * size

Aim speed (Seconds - Min | Max):
-Melee Weapons (deactivated)
-PPU Weapons (deactivated)
-APU Weapons (0.25 | 1.00)
-Pistols (0.50 | 2.00)
-Rifles (1.00 | 3.50)
-Cannons (2.00 | 5.00)

Please note: higher values are worse.

We are assuming the following time periods to zero in the reticule:
-Minimal: ~ 0.25 seconds
-Maximal: ~ 5 seconds

Firing frequency (in shot/strike/cast per minute – Min | Max):
-Pistol (30 | 120)
-Rifle (30 | 90)
-APU (30 | 60)
-Melee (20 | 60)
-Cannon (15 | 30)

Range (visual range – Min | Max):
-Rifle (50% Visual range | 100% Visual range)
-Cannon (40% Visual range | 80% Visual range)
-APU Weapons (30% Visual range | 60% Visual range)
-Pistols (25% Visual range | 50% Visual range)
-Melee Weapons (striking distance)

Capacity (Bullets per clip):
-Cannons (up to 40)
-Rifles (up to 30)
-Pistols (up to 25)

Ammo consumption (per shot):
For some guns, the ammo consumption is more or less dictated by their design – which can influence their damage-output, clip size and firing frequency. The consumption of PSI energy or stamina has to be determined on a case by case basis – a general rule is difficult.

Closing remark:
All these values are to be considered as guidelines! It may very well be that some weapons go above or below these guidelines. It is our goal to have a value system that allows us to properly evaluate weapons – during the testserver phase we will then be able to fine tune weapons (or whole weapon groups) based on those values.

Balancing of the weapon type: Pistols

Test results:
These tests were performed with a DEV-character on an unprotected NPC – the results aren’t very realistic, but they provide a good basis for the relations between the weapons!

   
  Weapon:		TechLevel:	Damage (shot):		Damage (1 Min.):
  Beggar Nailgun		1		13			1040
  Colt Budget			9		32			2560
  Laser Pistol			18		47			11280
  Freezer Pistol		40		53			4770
  Automatic Pistol		41		57			13680
  Gatlin Pistol			59		67			16080
  Plasma Pistol			68		114			18240
  Fusion Pistol			71		97			17460
  RayGun Pistol			74		289			26010
  Crossbow Pistol		100		721			64890

It is very easy to see that the freezer pistol is very underpowered – the raygun pistol and the crossbow are too strong. The re-calculations of the weapon properties in their current state look like this (please read the comment at the end):

Freezer Pistol (TechLevel 40, HighTech)
Damage-Output: 41.292 (3716.280 Damage per minute)
Aiming-Speed: 1.83 Seconds
Target-Size: 3.74 * size of crosshair
Frequency: 90 Shots per minute
Range: 39 % Viewsize
Clip-Size: 30/1 (Singleshot)

Gatlin Pistol (TechLevel 59)
Damage-Output: 20.683 (6403.86 Damage per minute)
Aiming-Speed: 1.61 Seconds
Target-Size: 3.41 * size of crosshair
Frequency: 240 Shots per minute
Range: 43 % Viewsize
Clip-Size: 40/4 (Burst)

Fusion Pistol (TechLevel 71, HighTech)
Damage-Output: 40.361 (7264.99 Damage per minute)
Aiming-Speed: 1.46 Seconds
Target-Size: 3.2 * size of crosshair
Frequency: 180 Shots per minute
Range: 45 % Viewsize
Clip-Size: 30/2 (Burst)

Juggernaut Crossbow Pistol (TechLevel 100, HighTech, WoC)
Damage-Output: 101.52 (9136.8 Damage per minute)
Aiming-Speed: 1.13 Seconds
Target-Size: 2.69 * size of crosshair
Frequency: 90 Shots per minute
Range: 51 % Viewsize
Clip-Size: 30/1 (Singleshot)

Explanation:
These values are the min/max values, meaning that any influence from the player is not considered. The firing frequency and clip sizes are still unchanged – these values are still being checked and will be adjusted if need be. We wanted to demonstrate the calculation of the weapon behavior first.

Clip size and single shot frequency are determined according to the weapon type. Aim speed, target size and range are determined by the weapon group and TechLevel (with some specific adjustments). Lastly, the damage-output is calculated – this is also determined by weapon type and TechLevel (plus the specific bonuses). In addition to this, the frequency is used as correcting factor, allowing the definition of the damage-output over time.

[Galileo]

There is a bonus system that mainly applies to damage output (but also to some other factors), which applies to all weapon types:
-Bonus: HighTech (+ 7.5%)
-Bonus: Rare (+ 10.0 %)
-Bonus: Epic (+ 12.5 %)
-Bonus: WoC (+ 15.0 %)

The bonus for high-tech is additive – for the other statuses only one applies.

So xbow, being a hi-tech WOC gets +22.5%?

As you have stated in your tests, the xbow is overpowered. I like the bonus system, but again (it's been said so many times) WoC should not be a requirement for PvP.

The bonus' above are a great idea, I just wonder what will happen to all the poor low tech guys. No more TL92 pistoleers either.

Can you explain if the stats you have given in the tests are using these values or using current in game values please?

Cheers

[Dribble Joy]

Damage-Output (per time unit):
-APU Weapons
-Melee Weapons
-Cannons
-Pistols
-Rifles

Eh... fine really...

There is a bonus system that mainly applies to damage output (but also to some other factors), which applies to all weapon types:
-Bonus: HighTech (+ 7.5%)
-Bonus: Rare (+ 10.0 %)
-Bonus: Epic (+ 12.5 %)

Makes vague sense. Epics are better, and high techs need to represent the skilling in TC.
Not sure about the rare bit though....

-Bonus: WoC (+ 15.0 %)

Big fat hairy NO!
Seriously. WoC should be of no performance advantage.

Aim precision (size of the reticule – Min | Max):
-APU Weapons (1.50 | 3.00)
-Pistols (1.75 | 4.00)
-Rifles (2.00 | 5.00)
-Cannons (3.00 | 8.00)

Hmmm...... maybe....

Aim speed (Seconds - Min | Max):
-Melee Weapons (deactivated)
-PPU Weapons (deactivated)
-APU Weapons (0.25 | 1.00)
-Pistols (0.50 | 2.00)
-Rifles (1.00 | 3.50)
-Cannons (2.00 | 5.00)

Again.... not sure. I'd prefer it to be based on skilling than hard mechanics. A tank with 178% aiming on a weapon should aim as fast as a pistol with 178%.
This is a skill based game and as such there should be a level playing field across the classes.

Firing frequency (in shot/strike/cast per minute – Min | Max):
-Pistol (30 | 120)
-Rifle (30 | 90)
-APU (30 | 60)
-Melee (20 | 60)
-Cannon (15 | 30)

Again it's dependant on weapon type.

Range (visual range – Min | Max):
-Rifle (50% Visual range | 100% Visual range)
-Cannon (40% Visual range | 80% Visual range)
-APU Weapons (30% Visual range | 60% Visual range)
-Pistols (25% Visual range | 50% Visual range)
-Melee Weapons (striking distance)

Well.. I'd like the pistol max a lot closer.

Capacity (Bullets per clip):
-Cannons (up to 40)
-Rifles (up to 30)
-Pistols (up to 25)

Irrelevant, depends on weapon type.

Blah.

Dmg/time should be TL based (with any factors such as hightech or epic thrown in).

[calim]

Aim precision (size of the reticule – Min | Max):
-APU Weapons (1.50 | 3.00)
-Pistols (1.75 | 4.00)
-Rifles (2.00 | 5.00)
-Cannons (3.00 | 8.00)

Please note: higher values are worse.

This is based on the following reticule sizes:
-Minimal: ~ 1.50 * size
-Maximal: ~ 8.00 * size

Aim speed (Seconds - Min | Max):
-Melee Weapons (deactivated)
-PPU Weapons (deactivated)
-APU Weapons (0.25 | 1.00)
-Pistols (0.50 | 2.00)
-Rifles (1.00 | 3.50)
-Cannons (2.00 | 5.00)

There is something i don't understand.
Rifles are used with two hands but is heavier / less easy to manipulate than pistol. So i can understand rifle's aim speed is lower that pistol. But what about aim precision ???? Once you locked something with a rifle in me sense you are more accurate than a pistol !

[John Doe]

@Calim: Good point - I think we can switch pistols and rifles in aiming-precision. Any other opinions to that point?

Testresults: As we have mentioned before - the list of pistols are tested with a DEV-Character on an unprotected NPC (these are capped values).

The specific (balanced) pistols are theoretical values without any skilleffects. Check the relativ values of these pistols and you will see that the X-Bow isn't that overpowered - it will be strong but not "uber".

If you compare the old gatlin pistol and the old x-bow to their new versions:
Gatlin Pistol: 100 % Damage
Crossbow Pistol: 403 % Damage

After Balancing
Gatlin Pistol: 100 % Damage
Crossbow Pistol: 142 % Damage

WoC-Bonus:
If everybody wants that WoC has no pvp-relevance we can restrict this to "Epic" as max.

[Mighty Max]

Are these boni accumulative, or does the stronger boni override the lower?
I.e. does a hightech rare give +17.5% or does it give +10%

[Apocalypsox]

Once again my problem with this...notice how APU weapons are at the top of damage per shot...and damage per time limit...

just strange to me..

[Zheo]

Stop making WOC a requirement for PVP, Dirus hated it and agreed with what I and most people said "WOC should NOT be a requirement for pvp" It should be an add on something extra. Remember that for some players our mummy's and daddy's don't pay for everything and we don't get summer holidays or live at home perminantly so we can't spend every waking minute playing to spec woc!
It also makes rares pointless as they are a go between. And another point is that there are only a handful of woc weapons.

[giga191]

Once again my problem with this...notice how APU weapons are at the top of damage per shot...and damage per time limit...

just strange to me..

so what? they kill faster, they die faster, it's just another style of play.

I predict that melee will ******** everyone for these reasons:
Tanks have good defence
Most PvP takes place when both players are very close to each other
They don't require aiming
They do the second highest amount of damage

Possibly not, but just a thought

[Bishop Yutani]

Until i dig into the post, I would say my initial reaction is that the APU looks like its getting a lot of bonuses. (and thats "bonuses", Mighty Max )

John Doe: I agree with Calim's point.

[John Wu]

Again.... not sure. I'd prefer it to be based on skilling than hard mechanics. A tank with 178% aiming on a weapon should aim as fast as a pistol with 178%.
This is a skill based game and as such there should be a level playing field across the classes.

I agree.

talking about giving apus the need to aim like other classes too and then proposing 0.25 seconds for apu compared to 4 seconds for the tank is just hilarious. thats eight times as long for the tank to aim. 0.25 seconds is as good as not having to aim at all.

with pistols you are fast - thats your advantage in close quarters combat.
with rifles you are a little slower than a pistol user - thats your disadvantage.
with cannons you are slower than both - clear disadvantage.

no need to handicap the aiming - like Dribble Joy said, there should be a level playing field when it comes to aiming.

thats the easiest way to balance it, since people with different skills will play the characters - should one decide which class to play from his ability to move the mouse? no, he should decide which class he wants to play in a rpg sense.

things like aiming need to be unified.

[calim]

err, it's because of realism. A heavy cannon is not as easy to handle as a pistol ... ( look at luky luke !). If you have an heavy weapon on your shoulder i think it's normal to say it's a bit longer to aim precisely. (but you hit *hard*).

I understand it's not a realism based game

[John Wu]

I understand it's not a realism based game

great - we would have to remove all psi based shit if it was

[Safunte]

how about, pistols are easier to cap aiming on, rifles are harder, and hc weapons are slightly harder than rifles (more more dependant on HC than weplore) and then you can make them all aim the same based on how close they are to that lovely aiming cap on their weapons? Oh that goes for reticule size as well.

As for the WoC bonus... 12.5% sounds reasonable, but i'd rather it was more like 11%. this would make it a 1.1x the rare bonus, nothing huge but its still an advantage. you've gotta remember its still a t-c weapon so if its a higher bonus for woc, it would be getting about 22.5% bonus, which is rediculous. and if something is rare/woc/epic it should only get half of the T-C bonus added on, if you start throwing in too many cumulative bonuses it starts making sweet point setups which completely blow... we want more difference in classes.

[Apocalypsox]

so what? they kill faster, they die faster, it's just another style of play.

I predict that melee will ******** everyone for these reasons:
Tanks have good defence
Most PvP takes place when both players are very close to each other
They don't require aiming
They do the second highest amount of damage

Possibly not, but just a thought

yeah but its the fact that they have to stay so close...