Your input on: Drugs

[Bragi]

edit//
whoops, hit post instead of preview, still writing up replies to last few quotes.

- longer fights can get "complicated" (correct redrugging)
- you get a flash, which is a big but acceptable downside

I think this is the key to our disagreement.

I am coming from the NC1 era, where the drugs were more like they are on Vedeena and flash was much less of an issue (or barely an issue at all).
The downside to drugs was the negative stats - an internal downside, rather than flash, cost or availability - an external downside.

My proposition is to move back to something like the old system.

But aside from pure nostalgia, my reasons lie with the break in gameplay that comes from dealing with flash. And even if you do manage it well, you still have a given amount of time before you have to 'reset' your char.
I also will admit I prefer to focus the majority of negatives on the immediate and internal type, at least when dealing with the core of a fast paced FPS.

- they do cost money (so nothing entirely free)
- you need fsm access in order to get them all (except for the raredrugs)

Without wanting to sound too snarky, am I the only one who collects W/R8-10s while on my PvE char to give to my tradeskiller?
I haven't paid for a drug in years and have stacks in my apt.

- almost all drugs are freakin useless compaired to "retail" (cmon, they are shit)
- the variety in character setups gets limited du to this fact

On the first point.... you're right, but I have been trying where possible to forget what is on retail and to think of a different system. That said, the main-skill effects are much higher.
Are the negatives too high? Quite possibly, but the aim was where the bonuses only outweighed them by enough to offset the intended external downsides (and not the ones on retail).

On the second point I would disagree. Having both negative and positive effects on the same drug means a given implant/armour setup can use a higher TL weapon, use better armour, etc. but with a penalty (less speed, hp, etc.).

- you still get a flash, which now is an even bigger downside

Well we still only have half of the idea on Vedeena. And frankly, Z has his hands full with more pressing concerns.

- with the comeback of the freeze-machanic it could be a necessity to take anti-freeze drugs from time to time (even harder to manage)

I... am not a fan of the freeze effect.

Entire bonus-malus of a common 4 drug setup (Paratemol X-Forte, Redflash, X-Beast, Destrosol X-Forte):

Well again, forget what's on retail. Have you tried new combinations, especially those that don't directly oppose each other?

+2,16 CON, +2,16 DEX, +2,16 STR, +2,16 INT, +21,66 ATL, +21,66 AGL, +21,66 HC, +21,66 WPL, +17,33 HLT, +17,33 TC, +17,33 WPL, +8,33 FRC, +8,33 PRC

So you don't see a problem with an immediate total bonus of over +8 main-skill and over one hundred and fifty sub-skill?

1) Drugflash mechanic stays the same

As mentioned, my biggest disagreement here. The flash mechanic as it is is frustrating and disruptive.

2) Remove coma Values

Done.

3) Remove unneeded Drugs

Where possible we aim to not remove a piece of content.

4) Add drugs where necessary so the Options are equalized

*Looks at point 3*
Wait, what?
Why not simply re-purpose existing drugs that we can't find a use for?

currently u dont HAVE to drug to be viable, some of the best pvp'rs dont drug for op fights.

Never said they do. But I still hold the position that the current effects are too high overall. It's more than an edge and that will add a pressure to drug out of necessity rather than isolated choice.

player skill > drug effects everyday of the week

Well obviously. I'm concerned that the difference between people who do and don't drug is too high and the former aren't having as much fun.

For me NC's PvP was the enormous 'ohshitohshitohshit' of adrenaline, tunnel vision, ragged-breath and flow-born endorphin-rush. Having to deal with the retail version of drug flash only hampers that.

Just like to add a quote from Braggi while testing weapons with him on test server.... "Apologies for my aim, i'm just into PVE"..

Really?

Because I don't have a char called Braggi..... nor did I test weapons with you. So either you're deliberately trying to falsely defame me or someone is impersonating me to do likewise.

[OLD No.7 BrAnD]

I am coming from the NC1 era...
My proposition is to move back to something like the old system.

Well, i guess i am coming from the beta era, and not everything was better back in the days .

Without wanting to sound too snarky, am I the only one who collects W/R8-10s while on my PvE char to give to my tradeskiller?
I haven't paid for a drug in years and have stacks in my apt.

You got a point there, but that doesn't change the fact that there are costs involved in the process and i assume you and i don't have the same amount of fights.

On the second point I would disagree. Having both negative and positive effects on the same drug means a given implant/armour setup can use a higher TL weapon, use better armour, etc. but with a penalty (less speed, hp, etc.)

I have to disagree too, the only thing that got buffed are the mainskills, which is nice for leveling, but the big malus sucks for pvp. Just too much negative effects overall as i already mentioned. Try different chars/setups with drugs on your own and you'll see that it's not worth the effort of using drugs at all.

I... am not a fan of the freeze effect.

Neither am i, i hated it, but that doesn't change anything either...

Well again, forget what's on retail. Have you tried new combinations, especially those that don't directly oppose each other?

Well i did, and if you are willing to play a competitive char with drugs the malus-stats suck point-blank in addition to all the other nagative effetcs i already listed.

So you don't see a problem with an immediate total bonus of over +8 main-skill and over one hundred and fifty sub-skill?

No? It would be if only a few chosen one's would be eager to use them, but it's the same for everyone! Plus it's almost completely turned around on the ptr (nerfhammer critically hit for 1337). Not everyone uses drugs and none is force to do so. I mean come on, how often does any of us has to point out that drugs are no necessaty in pvp?! But it's nice to have the opportunity to boost your char if wanted or needed. On the ptr it feels more like i circumcise my char by using them.

As mentioned, my biggest disagreement here. The flash mechanic as it is is frustrating and disruptive.

It is an acceptable downside compaired to the new drugs. But yeah, thats my subjective opinion. I use them to enhance my stats and in return i have to manage my flash.


Anyways, thanks for the discussion Bragi! I don't wanna be the spoilsport, but according to the drug changes on the ptr so far, it simply doesn't feel to make NC a better game and i guess that should be our aim.

[Drachenpaladin]

Was there already an official Freeze/Para Discussion or did I miss it?

[Odimara Orca]

As mentioned, my biggest disagreement here. The flash mechanic as it is is frustrating and disruptive.

You should’ve told us your perspective from the start.

You can’t get rid of the flash mechanic without making drugs

A) Usesless
or
B) Mandatory

Think about those 4 categories:

- Techlevel
- Resists/Health
- Damage
- Movementspeed

Think about it. Even if you balance the - and + values for all the Drugs, the net worth of using them will still be 0 so NOBODY uses them. If the net worth is >0 EVERYBODY uses them.

Because all of those values are almost equally important for PvP.

You can’t balance drugs within themselves. They need another, external, mechanic for this.

But what you can do is replace the Fuzzscreen:

- Synaptic Impairment
- Freeze Effect
- Stamina Drain
- Malus on resists
- etc.

It should not be possible to opt out of these negative sides by simply redrugging.

Preferably also not with self killing.

Make it a severe punishment which makes it easier for other people to kill you. But it shouldn’t last as long as the current Drugflash.

(20 to 25 Seconds rootet in Place, no Stamina for 40 to 50 Seconds etc.)

Maybe you could give stamina some purpose this way at the same time.


Or if you want individual Playstile:

Remove Drug Flash

Make multiple Drugs which allow you to use higher Tech Levels. (at Strenght 10 you can use a +3 Drug, at Strength 20 a +5 etc. (so lvling can still be boosted properly).

Make one +30 Drug (or +50, heck or +75) for each subskill in the game and limit people to only using one at a time.

There. Everybody can choose the one Drug which benefits him or his setup the most.

And maybe even Hybrids are viable again.


Or make something completely different:

Short duration Drugs!

Inject Tool with 30 Second reload time (only one inject tool for everybody)!

Different Ammo:

Athletic Drug (300% Speed Boost for 10 Seconds)
Toughness Drug (+50 to all Resists for 10 Seconds)
Enrage Drug (150% Meele Damage for 15 Seconds)
Psi Drug
Health Regeneration Drug
Construction Drug

[Drake6k]

I'll be honest, I've read 5 pages of this thread before replying.

I keep reading the argument "drugs increase build/setup variety" and I'm going to have to disagree. I'd love more variety with implants/armor/weapons, but not with drugs. Drugs are an obligation, an inconvenience that you must endure to compete with those willing to deal with said inconvenience.

Drugs are cool when a PE can use a cursed soul for 3 minutes, but then you're fucked. Drugs are cool when they help you put on your power armor or an implant that then sustains itself. Drugs are cool when you can poke 115 for a few minutes.

I'd love some drugs with longer duration (1 hour maybe) that increase transport or endurance, things that are more about convince and do not affect combat; the same goes for drugs that affect cst, res, hack, imp, recycle, repair, etc.

If I want to be competitive right now I need to use drugs. Being only able to use your gun temporarily isn't fun. Having to take 2 drugs so you can run as fast as everyone else isn't fun.

I suggest:
If you want more build variety, add more weapons, implants, and armor, so that new and interesting builds are possible. Lower the duration of drugs that affect combat, enough that they are used infrequently in OP wars, and add more longer lasting drugs that affect non-combat.

[Odimara Orca]

The only reason we have such a hard time with Drugs is the PE's stupid Design. If low TL weapons were viable for PE's we could actually repurpose Drugs without to many problems. But as it stands I'd suggest leaving them as they are until after we see the effects of the armour / implant revamp.

[OLD No.7 BrAnD]

I'll be honest, I've read 5 pages of this thread before replying.

I keep reading the argument "drugs increase build/setup variety" and I'm going to have to disagree. I'd love more variety with implants/armor/weapons, but not with drugs. Drugs are an obligation, an inconvenience that you must endure to compete with those willing to deal with said inconvenience.

Hey, i'm not sure if you really read the whole thread...
Drugs are no obligation as some of us mentioned several times before, and just because you love more variety with implants/armor/weapons does not make the fact invalid, that drugs also do increase the variety of setups.

I mean it's pretty obvious that more content (implants etc.) would increase variety/possibilities, but since this thread is about drugs it stands as it is.

P.S.: Don't get me wrong, new stuff would be nice, but since the development/player count is close to non existent we can't count on new items to be made.

[Odimara Orca]

P.S.: Don't get me wrong, new stuff would be nice, but since the development/player count is close to non existent we can't count on new items to be made.

Just repurpose existing ones.

Also with some advertisments and a call out from the Devs to start recruitment, an increase would be possible.

But they once stated they first have to fix some major issues before doing that i think.

[Trivaldi]

...from the Devs to start recruitment, an increase would be possible.

Like this?

[Odimara Orca]

Like this?

I was thinking about the playerbase :>! But let me have a look...

[Bragi]

Incidentally, the next version of drugs is going to be more 'Titanesque'.

The effects are integer and unlike what is on Vedeena currently; they might not be as potent as they are on retail, but more like tweaked versions and/or have a singular purpose.

The current drug flash system is hard-coded, making experimenting with it difficult.
In some ways, drug changes were brought in too early, in part because it's easy to alter them - unlike for example, shields.

I also misjudged the perceived downside for drug use; I am from the NC1 old school, where the flash was not the issue, but the negative skill effects. The current retail incarnation of drugs irks me immensely in that respect; it offers nothing but positives, so I approached it entirely from the perspective of the item stats.


I still want to look at drugs from a wide view though.
The whole concept of drug-rezzing seems daft; it breaks game-play, especially in long-form OP fights. PvP away from large team events is also restricted as there is only a certain amount of time you can spend before you cannot fight anymore. I would rather people be able to fight as long as they like. Hence the focus on the difference between positive and negative drug stats (but ignoring the current flash mechanic).


The whole system is horribly complex; we need to build up each layer, but it is probable that drugs were looked at too soon.
Of course, how you view the effects of each layer affects and is affected by how you view another layer.

Altering a layer so that it is 'neutral' with respects to layers past and to come is near impossible. Your view of how each layer works will always be affected be what surrounds it - altered or not.
I think we will put the whole drug discussion on hold for a bit until we have more important stuff out of the way and we can truly focus on the entirety of how drugs operate.

[Odimara Orca]

Hey Bragi

Great to hear, I absoluty agree after doing some brainstorming myself. So might we see the armor and implant changes hit titan, with drugs essentially staying the same?

Any chance we get an Sql Dump with the next update to veedeena?

[carnaged]

I actually think that the alcohols within neocron should have an effect on stamina. My suggestion is to let them just make the stamina obsolete for a period of time until the screen goes fuzzy, then let the usual effect take its course. If you did the same with the food/candy, only for psi power, you could make the fuzzy effect if more than the maximum amount of psi power is used.

[William Antrim]

What about removing drug flash all together but having a DOT (damage over time) on the players health which gradually ticks down at the point when the drugs run out.

The dot can be removed by perhaps another substance (beers maybe?) or wear out by itself. The DOT could also be healed up.

So drugging in op fights would probably not be too adversely affected, drugging in solo fights SHOULD not lead to too much downtime and if your drugs go in the middle of the fight then maybe the fight just ends a tiny bit quicker?

If medkits can combat the drug damage effect the player can "plan" for it and safely get away to heal up and negate the issue but it also confers an advantage to the opponent when the drugs ARENT on. Hopefully this will go some way towards appeasing the "anti-drug" crowd. If the medkit keeps the damage lost due to the drug come down then the player doesnt gain any healing from the medkit you see, rather he is popping them to stay alive for a few minutes more but this is the risk he takes by having the advantage of the drugs in the first place.

The risk and the reward are balanced. If the drug "high" lasts 10 minutes then maybe the comedown can last about 2 minutes?

[Doc Holliday]

What about removing drug flash all together but having a DOT (damage over time) on the players health which gradually ticks down at the point when the drugs run out.

Had the same idea a few nights ago. I was thinking get rid of flash and make a hard penalty on overall health after a certain threshold is achieved. Have it increase as more drugs are taken but then let the end duration fizzle out again after a short period of "downtime" as the runners metabolism (or what ever you want to call it. heart etc) sorts itself out and purges the drug and the negative effects. that would be awesome.