[R#186] T#186-T#197 Patch Discussion

**William Antrim** · 21-04-14, 12:56

Originally Posted by Drake6k

Having percents cap at 100% would make a lot more sense. 250% aiming? 120% artifact weapon stats? Wasn't the old freq cap like, 378%?

damage cap used to be 176% (or 178% i forgot which), aiming was like 250 or 200%. frequency I honestly cannot remember but I know that firing a cs with capped freq was like a fully automatic weapon. They were the days.

I would rather see skill caps tbh on damage to give people variation in 2ndary skills (driving for example - vehicular combat would be great for ganking).

**Sevendust** · 21-04-14, 23:22

Originally Posted by Bragi

Well the next stage is looking at the sub-skill to performance relationship. Also, 14 extra damage on top of what total? (Could you also check the change between ~150 HC and ~175 HC?)

P.S. I'm currently going through the damage values on the ammo. I've found numerous problems that have cropped up since I last did them. Going to fix the ones you mentioned while I'm at it.

Im not sure on the exact numbers, but I believe it was around 140 (245 h-c) to 157 (283 h-c). & that 157 dmg might have been a headshot instead of chest shot to see the max increase. Might have only been about 7. >_<

Why test at 150-170 HC?...I'm starting to feel like we kinda need to know what's in the plans to be done about the weapons so we know what/where/why to test. (If it's to make certain main weapon stats require less to cap the rare weapons, I agree with HC. It takes about 245ish to cap the aiming on a Cursed Soul.

**Bragi** · 22-04-14, 00:28

Originally Posted by Sevendust

Im not sure on the exact numbers, but I believe it was around 140 (245 h-c) to 157 (283 h-c). & that 157 dmg might have been a headshot instead of chest shot to see the max increase. Might have only been about 7. >_<

OK, so we are talking roughly about a 12% increase. If you could list the damage values on the weapon's info screen at both sub-skill levels, that would be good.

Why test at 150-170 HC?...I'm starting to feel like we kinda need to know what's in the plans to be done about the weapons so we know what/where/why to test. (If it's to make certain main weapon stats require less to cap the rare weapons, I agree with HC. It takes about 245ish to cap the aiming on a Cursed Soul.

I need to look at base values as well as item-buffed ones. 283 HC is a lot and may be where the dmg/sub-skill effects are much lower than at smaller values.
Also remember that since sub-skills don't affect frequency, the dmg change with sub-skill change will be lower than previous and we will probably have to change it.

As for aiming, that's a separate equation from damage, we can always alter it so that lower sub-skill setups don't loose out on aiming performance.

**walkman** · 22-04-14, 15:28

My 2 cents.

This patch will be not a panacea of all problems. Instead it will brings disbalance. A simple example that will brings first problem is Ionic Pistol. The pistol has only 2 shells (1 shot) and currently reload time about 5 (five) seconds. Compared to its "brothers" riffle and cannon with 16 shells (8 shots) and reload time about 3 seconds. The first question is, what is damage it will produce acceptable for this TL/DPM? 2 thousands per shot? May be 3 thousands of pure pierce damage? Or even else with mods, 1k pierce + 1k xray, huh? If so then Kame will load his own PE/Spy and will use such easy (how he said) weapons. One shot, one death. And there are no problems with clip size

If you still does not beleave that it will cause such problems then think about who told you that you need only one ionic pistol in your belt? Take 2-3 ionic pistols. They gives you double or triple damage. You are require to be fast enough (before auto-reload) to switch for another pistol. So, 2-3 such pistols will be deals around 4-8k dmg (at least for new DPM/TL curve). So, nobody can stay alive and no one will survive. 3 shots equals 100% death of any char, with any armor, any!

But I am sure that balance team will decrease power of such ultimate weapon. Because looks like they are hate pistols! On Veedena my char have only TT epic pistol and perfect uranium Wyatt Earp. Everybody knows that currently TT pistol has much greater DPS/DPM than Earp. Even with new system was nothing changed! NOTHING. TT epic pistol (TL 75) deals around 350-360 dmg. And Earp deals maximum 250-260. And balance team knows where is problem, but did not fixed it. And problem is simple. Most mobs have a lot of pierce resistance. Most classes have a lot of pierce resistance. And I dont know why Earp even on Veedena deals MUCH LESS damage, even having +13 TL points. Who can explain me such injustice?

Again. Especially for PE those two pistols are common. There I will continue Kame's story about "easy to use". Such pistols like Earp, BHG and so on have great recoil. This means that after shoot you need to aim again (not like as in first time, but you need to do this). While TT epic and even Liberator does not have such problem. You may shoot with Liberator non-stop and aim will be same all the time! I am not sure but I suppose that EoF, dissy and any machine gun type weapons does not have such problem either. And again I ask, why Earp deals much less damage? Its not easy to use. Its not deals desireable damage. It was useless and stay useless. Sadly but true. The conclusion: remove Wyatt Earp entirely from the game. Then L-parts will produces much more usefull things like cpu chips

Continue describing pistol's problems. At this time about PvE part. What did balance team? There are 3 types of Mini Rocket Launcher (TL 65 is max) and it has 30/min shot frequency. Why? Why not 45/min? Or 60/min? On Titan my PE have 90/min and its really too fast, even causing sometimes graphical issues. A few days ago I got first WoC with my pistol/PE. And this gun helps a lot. Why am I so angry? Well, I will explain everything. All pistols for PE: TL 65 MRL (rocket launcher), TL 75 TT epic pistol, Wyatt Earp (TL 88), TL 91 Liberator, TL 95 Ionic Pistol, TL 100 Judge, TL 103 Slasher, TL 105 Beam of Hell. Every pistol which have TL over 96-97 is useless unless you will bought TOP level mc5 chips: DIP, CCP and RD. Any other class does not have such problem. Any other class does not need to get WoC for common TL 96 Backup Gun (also seems to be useless). No one needs use drugs for leveling (except may be droners). And now who told me how to get WoC on Vedeena with brand new TL 65 MRL and TT epic pistol? The answer is easy, you got WoC within few weeks, well, now you will got it within few months. Or just be a droner! Great, thank you very much. Good that I tested this behavior and got WoC fast enough, until new balance patch.

Why I told you this? Because shot frequency heavily changing PvE part. And nobody says about that in this thread. I have friend, riffle spy, he got WoC (and soon will got second) with TCSR and then SH. And I dont know how such classes (without AoE, in case of PE limited AoE) will getting WoC later. I think everybody will start as rigger. Because as I see you dont touch them... Even APUs will start as riggers. And may be tanks will do same either. Who knows?

Think about this too, dear balance team.

Thank you for attention.

---

Sorry for my english if you see mistakes. It is not native language.

I hope that world where lives only tanks and ppus will be ended. And guys like Kame stop talking about mythical clip size problem. I want to play with my pistol/PE and I dont want listen talks about useless PE/APU anymore.

**Kame** · 23-04-14, 16:31

Off topic :

No matter how much other forum users will tell me to shut up, I will not stop posting my opinions and views. So you guys can stop right away.

On topic.

Also the clip-size inequality over a weapon's range is a problem of first instance.

You DEVs need to realise that trying to balance DPM/TL when Cursed Soul and the rest of the plasma cannon range have ammo clips inconsistencies. Especially at the gameplay level, it renders every weapons with the smaller clip useless for PVP.

This type of adjustment falls into the scope of weapons and should be addressed.

**Alduin** · 24-04-14, 15:54

T#189 has been released!

Please head over to the Patch Notes thread to see what has been updated in detail.

To summarise: all weapons doing damage over time should now be in line with the others and weapons have been boosted depending on their weapon category. This weapon category dependent boost has been put in place to see how it affects PvP between different classes, like e.g. tank vs spy.

Please focus your testing on the following:

Using the new frequencies (which include reloading times) from the weapon info window: is the dpm vs tl curve now correct?
Do 1vs1 fights amongst the same class feel balanced?
Do 1vs1 fights amongst different classes feel balanced?
Is the APU of any use on Vedeena?

When giving feedback/posting test results please categorise your feedback according to the focus categories mentioned above. This will allow us to more easily identify if what we've put in, is really what comes out at your end. Please try to fill us in with as many details as possible (skill setups, weapons used, mods used, ...).

Thank you all for your help!

**Alduin** · 24-04-14, 18:19

Dumb me forgot to add the needed definitions for players to be able to get to the shooting range. They have been added by now via a small patch.

**brand** · 25-04-14, 00:53

hmm have fought with a rifle spy against a hc tank. devo stack seems to be op. got hit one time and almost died because of the poison stack. i m waering a regant pa and have some posion resists. dmg generally too high. the only weapon which seemed to do normal dmg was the first love butmaybe i just haven t hit good with it. tanks are getting eaten in seconds by the dmg atm. i m just imagining a tank running around in the wasteland then a spy comes out of his stealth and is killing him in seconds before he can even react. why try to make a spy as strong as a tank in duels? isn t the spy more like an assasine which takes his advantage out of his stealth and his speed and with rifles with his sniping skills? i think it s rly important to make the runningspeed right. and i personally think that pistols melees rifles should not do more dmg than hc it just should be more balanced in runspeed.
atm fighting a tank on the testserver feels like shooting a spy and getting shot by a tank on spy feels like you have 5 con.
don t know if the neofrag is just bugged and the resist don t coun t there or something.

**Drachenpaladin** · 25-04-14, 03:09

Well, in case of doubt... just test it in the wastes... after all thats what the test server is set up for so nicely with vendors and stuff...

**Dropout** · 25-04-14, 08:59

Originally Posted by brand

don t know if the neofrag is just bugged and the resist don t coun t there or something.

Dont ever trust NF, mate.
That place is buggy as shit, sadly.

**Tankjr** · 25-04-14, 12:39

Hi Peepz,

Very interesting to read this, but 'how' can new People which started to play this Game espeically to get as fast as possible into this PVP Madness ...which maybe only get in use of nskl, fuckin loom pills, various damage testings - 1v1 where the see how Things change or take effect ...get more involved into better or more spezific 'realistic' Testings to make their own Setups as best effective as they can ?? I guess the most Noobs doesnt understand the half of what u guys speak... numbers, prozent of this and that. TL ...tbh !

Any turoials, stats or examples, calculates to get into this ????

Can u may tell or give help for those people ? As more are getting involved.
I know at least 2 handfull of new Runners which are getting started to get as fast as possible into this PVP Madness ...they need a bit of help.

Thank you Guys!

**Dasore** · 25-04-14, 14:26

Tankjr in your opinion it may sound stupid but i think there is no real use if new players take place in these tests. For sure they can join the testserver and shoot each other and write in forum what they think, but what they ll experience ll not be what the real old players ll try and figuere out. i think you ll have to be a bit more into nc than a usual half a year playing guy can get, same with some of the tradeskillers here that talk bout pvp.

Testing new setups is a bit difficult at the moment cause ppu-spells dont work correct, weapons do too much damage cause of the wrong frequ. Probably will get better after 1 or 2 more patches and then you can think about trying new setups.

What the tested atm is if the damage of the weapons is right compared to their techlevel, kind of weapon and if pvp is a bit more balanced than it is now (on retail its okay between the classes, just apu is shit, some weapons do too much dmg and some dont do any)

**Tankjr** · 25-04-14, 14:52

Hi mate,

Okay - as i see now, it depends on howi tried to explain my Questions, sorry for my english.

I didnt meant and it definetly right and logical that a noob cant help you with some Kind of Testings.

Look back - you just started for a few months. Your chars are or getting capped. You want to start play PVP. As u know, read, hear or actually see from actual Fights ..u got Experuence. U know which Weapons effects and which not. But and now thats the Point Mate...

How to become a better Point of View for your Setup ?

People for example only know nskill, working on it. Try to get the best mix out of armor, implants.. increasing points on there mainskill for dmg out, freq, balance, etc. So far, so good.

Who can tell those how to calculate exactly or from the basics up forwards on which points focus must be set ?
When does atl, agy been reached on points or ressists that this is not too much and doesnt be not counted if u set the value (runspeed) to high ??
Same with spending points over con (armor not included) ? Some people speak about ressist overcapp with false or returns in more dmg which u want recieve ? Can u understand what i want to tell you ?

They doesnt know any basics how to start to get there setup on a great way that it effects at the end. They must of them join neofrag with a package of looms, shoot each other under various conditions and only can learn of the result which take effect - thats it.

Or other people say - when u set points on ressists it must be set to an ending with 1, 3 or 9 for eample, otherwise the calculation doesnt take the full effect ??

As u see... for new runners which try to get an solide or stable setup, they need more facts on basics, ressist, damage calculations as u experienced players know. If they see 65% energy ressists on a nskill picture they doesnt know if its enough or maybe 80% will be counted as more effective and so on.

I hope u understand me better now...
Its just about a few rulez, or basics each new runner which wants to start to get deeper and more efficient in pvp should have to recognize or know.

Otherwise its more a waste of time when u dunno have a order how things should basicly be set or done.

**Dasore** · 25-04-14, 15:15

funny, two germans talking english

1st: use the nskill to get a basic setup
2nd: get in neofrag and test vs all used pvp weapons
3rd: if its okay figure out how to get 1 or 2 points more in the skills by switching armor/imps. If its shit start from the beginning.

i mean there is no real op setup, you just have to find your setup

NSkill is a bit bugged, so i wouldnt give too much about it. there are a few wrong stats on implants/armor, runspeed isnt right and i never tested the damge % on weapons.

At the moment the best thing you can do on retail for new players is leveling, learn to aim and get used to their weapons. think setups will be made after the patch anyway when everything is set and everyone gets used to the changes

**Tankjr** · 25-04-14, 15:28

Dasore, all those Things are fine and maybe a good Solution. And yes, thats we they do. But i asked for more detailed Things like Basics. Didn't you read the example or ressist or runspeed capps which i asked for ? Especially Runspeed ... since the last Patch ...there must be a fuckin point at which Spending more Points on that must result in Useless ... where to find infos about. Who is approving me that spending 145 in agy isnt effecting now then it was on one of those last patches. Thats one of the points what i call' basics' and no neofrag in this world can show me an answer. '' they dont know it...

Walker	John Gotti
Sammy the Bull	Danish Rage
Innocent Bystander	Walking Waste
Sweet Judgement	Sweet Vengeance

Thread: [R#186] T#186-T#197 Patch Discussion

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