Your input on: "zone line whoring"

[Cursed Shadow]

Some time ago I made a suggestion to counter sync-laming where people are constantly trying to sync in and out of levelzones to avoid getting hit:

http://forum.neocron-game.com/showth...ighlight=synch

Maybe we can enhance this.
Why not implementing a "fight-mode" trigger. When you are shooting at someone (firing your weapon) you are set in "fight-mode". Means that you can't leave a zone after a certain amount of time passed where you didn't shoot anymore. Let's say it is 10 seconds.

This could even be a nice feature. Think of being in the pepper park sectors and you get shot. You have two possibilities. Run or shoot back, knowing that shooting back means that either you die or the enemy dies.

But we have to be careful with Spies. Stealth should pause the counter. Let's say you are shooting someone and he comes back at you, so you find it useful to get into stealth. 10 seconds are not a long time for stealthers. They can simply wait near a zoneline and sync after the 10 seconds are out.
When you go into stealth your counter should stop at the point where you went into stealthing.

Completely agree.

I wonder what you think about my suggestion of removing Third Party buffs when you sync into certain types of zones. e.g. PP1 is given a 'War Zone' type or something. Synching into that zone removes all third party buffs. Of course, your PPU friend can follow you in, but you can't multibox with a PPU in a safe zone.

[Cursed Shadow]

I think nabbl's suggestion would be fair, stealthers can still escape combat more easily, especially in the wasteland but at least you'll have a chance to kill them as they need to wait 10 seconds unstealthed before they can zone.

I don't support the suggestions in here for removing ppu buffs on zoning, it would get tedious having to constantly rebuff whenever you zone and with the zone timer it's really unnecessary to mess with buffs too.

I already said Third Party buffs, not self casts.

[hatmankh]

I read and understood your post, I don't think they should get removed either. Think of it like this, buffs only last a couple minutes and with the zoneline changes you won't be able to run back and get buffed again after that time is up, ppus logged off in safe zones become useful only for your initial entrance into a combat zone, after those few minutes if you're still in combat you can't run away and you're unbuffed.

I actually think removing buffs on zoning would make things even worse if you don't like ppus in every little fight, we'd end up with ppu players constantly healing, shielding and anting in every single encounter because almost every fight would be to the death.

[Trivaldi]

The below is my personal opinion and only intended to further the discussion, it's not a indication of intent by the team as a whole.

I think what we do need is a downtime when you ENTER a zone.

I've cropped this quote right down to highlight this specific point. To me this seems like a reasonably strong solution. In my mind moving to another zone in order to escape is not a huge problem, that bit makes perfect sense in any combat situation. Assuming its a one way trip it's the same as running around a corner in a single zone, just with a moment of loading thrown in.

The problem, as we all know, arises when there is a CONSTANT back and forth over a single zone line. I like the quoted suggestion above as it means the combatant has to commit to zoning. If you zone down into a sewer, that's where the next X seconds of the action HAS to happen. If you jump into the next zone, predator is gonna follow prey and that's where it all does down. As long as the cool down is long enough, there would be enough time to get some action in before heading back to the original zone or the next one.

The second problem though, which the above alone wouldn't solve, is zone whoring with safe zones. Both combatants zone into a neighboring safe zone, then instead of heading straight back to a normal zone they'd have to sit around and share small talk for those X seconds.

My personal proposal for this would be to add additional behavior to guards, in conjunction with a zone entry cool down.

PvP (specifically not including PvE) should activate a flag on your character, which has a cool down period of Y seconds. If you zone into a safe zone (specifically a safe zone) guards in the zone should react to that PvP flag and shoot you. If you zone into any other zone type, only the zone entry cool down would be in play, allowing the fighting to continue as normal. This should discourage fights from hugging safe zone zone lines, but does not stop those safe zones being a starting point for inner city PvP. I'm aware being able to hop into the action is a very important issue we must consider for inner city PvP.

From a RP perspective - if you will excuse such bad language - this makes a lot of sense. If the zone line simply weren't there, any guards in none safe zones would hear you coming and keep their noses out of it (since they're only there to fight enemies and not prevent any scuffles, especially since we removed the CopBots from PP). Whereas if the zone line didn't exist as you moved into a safe zone (these things are supposed to be super secure, none violent areas not just magic no weapon zones), the guards would be doing their job and ensuring the area remains violence free by putting the combatants down.

The above thoughts, to me at least, would allow PvP to better flow across zone lines - be they into another fighting sector or a secure sector - but not remove inter zone travel from PvP. I personally don't think stopping people from leaving a zone altogether is the right thing to do. Fight or flight should always be a decision to be made by the individual, the flight side of the argument just shouldn't be such an advantage like it is now.

To be clear, the above would apply everywhere including out in the Wastelands. This would mean teams hiding in the Underground of an Outpost would need to sort themselves out and commit to 'going over the top'. Of course balance in PvP would need to consider these changes so fights last a bit longer naturally, without the inorganic extension zone whoring currently grants.

The above is my personal opinion and only intended to further the discussion, it's not a indication of intent by the team as a whole.

[Cursed Shadow]

I read and understood your post, I don't think they should get removed either. Think of it like this, buffs only last a couple minutes and with the zoneline changes you won't be able to run back and get buffed again after that time is up, ppus logged off in safe zones become useful only for your initial entrance into a combat zone, after those few minutes if you're still in combat you can't run away and you're unbuffed.

I actually think removing buffs on zoning would make things even worse if you don't like ppus in every little fight, we'd end up with ppu players constantly healing, shielding and anting in every single encounter because almost every fight would be to the death.

I was just trying to drag a full explanation out of you.
It's an understandable counter-argument to my suggestion. You might be right, it could see more active PPU'ing in PvP, however, I personally believe there are more dual-loggers available than active PPUs in fights.
Additionally, if PPUs are more widely active in fights, those PPUs will be in a situation to debuff one another too, making it viable to kill them for once.

What do you think?

[Cursed Shadow]

PvP (specifically not including PvE) should activate a flag on your character, which has a cool down period of Y seconds. If you zone into a safe zone (specifically a safe zone) guards in the zone should react to that PvP flag and shoot you.

Thanks for the input, I agree with your extension and suggestions.

I'm going to start to discuss on the "PVP Flag", as a duration would need to be defined for the PVP Flag (perhaps it lasts until you next zone?). You effectively have to wait until the sync cooldown ends to sync again (which would then remove the PVP flag) unless you continue to PVP, in which case, it remains.

My opinion is that anti-buffs and damage boosts should initialize the PVP flag too, as they are hostile actions.

[hatmankh]

It's true there are currently more dual loggers than active ppus, this is because the game as it currently is heavily favors zone whoring. If that were to change as is being discussed here, then over time so would the active ppu to dual logger ratio change, players adapt to the game's balance whenever it is changed. If a weapon is buffed or nerfed you can see this with people changing their setups or even playing different classes that are now stronger due to the buff or nerf, it's reasonable to expect the same to apply here.

What do I think about active ppus becoming a part of pretty much every fight? Well, it kills the solo PvP, every fight becomes like an OP fight with big teams of PPUs and damage dealers. I don't want that to happen, I prefer variety in gameplay and I know not everyone likes group PvP or is even clanned.

[William Antrim]

I like Triv's idea.

My own idea was going to be "give people a health hit for zoning into a safe zone" that way they would die if they were zone whoring. The problem with that is it would lead to EVEN more dual logged ppus just to rez people who died from synch laming. Not less people. The guards shooting the player in Triv's suggestion do the same thing. Therein lies the problem. The PP clubs would have even more PPUs logged there.

However if the pain of these deaths and the cost of getting "back into the action" was lowered greatly and Neocron's "down time between deaths" made more arcade-like and indeed more FPS like then it would serve to appeal to the types of gamers who yearn for this action. They are the ones who will come to nc to play it for the pvp. The thread I made discussing these changes details my thoughts more plainly. http://forum.neocron-game.com/showth...-PVP-penalties
The LE players etc as Torg mentioned in that thread would be able to continue unopposed.


The PVE side of the community would also benefit if they so required it and so it would be good for all players.

If the cost of death was more easily managed and not such a ball ache I think less people would zone over the border.

I also think all safe zones should be removed in Pepper Park - except HQs. Club safezones need to be removed and guards need to attack ALL runners with weapons drawn regardless of faction.

If teams want to raid pepper park then the factions living there should have the chance to defend their turf.


If Neocron doesnt appeal to the pvp loving gamers then they will simply go and play other instant action style games where the cost of death is a few seconds of down time and then back into the action. More gamers these days are actually over school age than those in the school age bracket and do not have the time to spend hours like they used to. NC needs to adapt and change with this in mind in order to appeal to the mass market pvp-centric gamers.

[Jodo]

I don't really want to influence this thread too much as I'm not a PvP'er. However I would ask the question: If something is decided upon to solve this issue (cooldown when zoning, debuffs, whatever) should this malus extend to the LE'd?
Obviously this will depend on the final solution but I would hope LE'd gameplay be affected as little as possible by PvP rulings.

[Torg]

zoning isnt a problem at all. not even multiple, high-frequency zoning. the problem is rehealing/rebuffing in safety and then returning back to battle.
this could be helped by a timer to keep you inside a safezone for a minimum cooldown time. you know, like the city admin runs crazy and modifies the law enforcing field of plaza one to be even more law enforcing. you still could jump to plaza 2, fight and retreat on the last second. why not? you just couldnt do that numerous times in a row. i dont think we'd need that in other sectors, except OP underground entrys. which by some mysteriuos technical mistake, could undergo the very same law enforcement change of not letting people leave really soon.
this idea is not adressing zone-laming between non-safe zones, for a reason.
you would most probably think of 10 seconds cooldown time, but i could well imagine 30 or 60 as well. again: this is neocron, not unreal tournament.

[William Antrim]

The only reason its not a problem on non-safe to non-safe zonelines is because people are too scared to fight on those zonelines. Believe me if there were zonelines like this where people fought then it would be a problem there too.

These changes if and when implemented need to apply to ALL zones, not just a carefully selected few. Running away is fine and working out the time it takes for the average runner to cross a zone line (20 seconds roughly? or maybe 30?) and then setting the debuff to less than that is the best possible course of action. Or making them cross an alternative zoneline but not back over the one they just crossed would be a beneficial condition if possible. This would allow genuine "running away" or "chasing" but not the constant lamer zoning back and forth.

[Faid]

Ill propose a simple change that won't really effect any other classes or chars or even game mechanics.

Simply add slow opening doors to the major zone whoring zone lines. Something like the doors at the gates of NC or the doors in Proto lab. The major problem as I see it is that when someone realizes they are going to lose they turn tail and zone to safety often times right before being killed. So if we simply add doors that open from the top down and take maybe 3-5 seconds to open this should, at the very least, decrease people being able to zone quickly to safety. I don't know if it's possible to have the zone in point be beyond the doors so you don't have to wait after zoning in.

This shouldn't be too difficult to implement either I don't think. It wont mess anything up regarding buffs dropping, cooldowns, pvp flags and all that complicated stuff. This could at least be a fast easy semi-fix for now.

[Drachenpaladin]

I'll just wait for seemless zoning

[William Antrim]

Ill propose a simple change that won't really effect any other classes or chars or even game mechanics.

Simply add slow opening doors to the major zone whoring zone lines. Something like the doors at the gates of NC or the doors in Proto lab. The major problem as I see it is that when someone realizes they are going to lose they turn tail and zone to safety often times right before being killed. So if we simply add doors that open from the top down and take maybe 3-5 seconds to open this should, at the very least, decrease people being able to zone quickly to safety. I don't know if it's possible to have the zone in point be beyond the doors so you don't have to wait after zoning in.

This shouldn't be too difficult to implement either I don't think. It wont mess anything up regarding buffs dropping, cooldowns, pvp flags and all that complicated stuff. This could at least be a fast easy semi-fix for now.

Best idea yet. Make the Pussy Club and Club Veronique doors open in like 5 seconds. That would be good. Or turn the zones into fighting zones. So we can all pretend we are Eminem.

[SilentEye]

Ill propose a simple change that won't really effect any other classes or chars or even game mechanics.

Simply add slow opening doors to the major zone whoring zone lines. Something like the doors at the gates of NC or the doors in Proto lab. The major problem as I see it is that when someone realizes they are going to lose they turn tail and zone to safety often times right before being killed. So if we simply add doors that open from the top down and take maybe 3-5 seconds to open this should, at the very least, decrease people being able to zone quickly to safety. I don't know if it's possible to have the zone in point be beyond the doors so you don't have to wait after zoning in.

This shouldn't be too difficult to implement either I don't think. It wont mess anything up regarding buffs dropping, cooldowns, pvp flags and all that complicated stuff. This could at least be a fast easy semi-fix for now.

Best idea yet. Make the Pussy Club and Club Veronique doors open in like 5 seconds. That would be good. Or turn the zones into fighting zones. So we can all pretend we are Eminem.

Totally agreed. Faid's solution is simplest and I think very clever!