Low Weapon and Skill caps please

[Deus Ex Machina]

I had similar thoughts recently, and I fully agree. At first I thought the idea of a soft cap is nice, but a hard cap really is better for allowing diversity.
Mostly I read the whole starting post, and I think I can agree on all points.
I'd love to see combat tradeskillers around again.

[Neallys]

We are undeniably going back to a NC1 system where weapon could be capped with 170~ RC/PC in the skill I think. ANd this make sense, because in NC1, people were runing around with Judge/termi/Exec/Slasher PE and were effective. The higher TL the weapon was, the more chips you had to put in thus reducing your resists, it made sense. Now If you want to somewhat hurt people with these weapons, you gotta have 270 in RC/PC, sacrificing a huge amount of resists and it doesn't make sense anyway.


A similar system would be nice, I was discussing this yesterday with a fellow player.

[RogerRamjet]

The pre 2.2 formulas and caps worked for more than the current incarnation. I don't know whether devs want to revert to that system, but i'd be for it.

[Dribble Joy]

And I'll be the one to disagree.

NC2 showed why caps can destroy balance. Even the highest TL weapons could be capped with ease, leading to the situation where weapon choice was even more restricted than it is now; Higher TL = better.
In NC1 I only capped my weapon through the use of a kami. The original mechanics created by the devs had been (barely) brought into question by the introduction of content that the original devs had not envisaged when they were created.

Even if you make those caps hard to attain, the same problem will exist. There will be a set amount of skilling required and thus a set amount of 'free' points left over to use.
My PE currently has ~50 points spent in Hack, The Dmg reduction is minimal, probably around 1% (if that), but it is a choice I make. I could spec all my INT points into WEP for that little bit extra, but I choose not to. If you introduce caps, then you start removing that choice.
I also disagree with the argument that a lack of caps 'forces' you to fully spec in one area. It assumes that the trade in one area is worth more than that in another. This of course brings into question the performance/skilling gradient (which is out of whack) but also other things like the issues raised by multi-slot servers and the impact on runner life by non-PvP elements.

[DIABLO666]

And I'll be the one to disagree.

NC2 showed why caps can destroy balance. Even the highest TL weapons could be capped with ease, leading to the situation where weapon choice was even more restricted than it is now; Higher TL = better.
In NC1 I only capped my weapon through the use of a kami. The original mechanics created by the devs had been (barely) brought into question by the introduction of content that the original devs had not envisaged when they were created.

Even if you make those caps hard to attain, the same problem will exist. There will be a set amount of skilling required and thus a set amount of 'free' points left over to use.
My PE currently has ~50 points spent in Hack, The Dmg reduction is minimal, probably around 1% (if that), but it is a choice I make. I could spec all my INT points into WEP for that little bit extra, but I choose not to. If you introduce caps, then you start removing that choice.
I also disagree with the argument that a lack of caps 'forces' you to fully spec in one area. It assumes that the trade in one area is worth more than that in another. This of course brings into question the performance/skilling gradient (which is out of whack) but also other things like the issues raised by multi-slot servers and the impact on runner life by non-PvP elements.

This is sort of what I was saying ish... though I think I back tracked and made it more confusing =p. As you said people aren't forced to do 1 role right now.. but you have to spec a lot into a role if you want to do it really well which is how it should be, you shouldn't be able to master a large number of skills. Guns are the same if you want the most damage and aiming you should need to spec a lot into your main skills for it not just be given it for free, as I said thats what I'm doing on my tank now sacrificing defence to get more hc for higher stats, or I could choose a setup with less hc and more resists. If I capped hc easily the choice is gone as I get capped stats with ease so just go for the resist build instead.

As I was trying to say the better idea in my view for weapons at least would be to actually make it harder to cap some guns but easier to cap others, this way lower tl guns become viable as you can cap them easily but higher tl guns are also viable as they are harder to cap so you need to sacrifice stuff to cap em but you get more out of them if you do. This system you suggest would basically mean everybody is using the highest tl weapon cos its easy as hell to cap while having spare points. Wheres the fun in that?

[RogerRamjet]

I have to politely disagree with the above. As an example, I had about 6 or 7 PEs (2 or 3 in FETISH on Terra) across the servers at the end of 06, pre2.2 (all non-WoC), ranging from a Tsu Rifle PE, Pain Easer PE, Healing Light PE, Judge PE, Executioner/Slasher PE, Paw of Tiger PE and a Tangent Plasma Cannon PE.

Each build was an enormous exercise in trading something off (and I put the hours in in Neofrag to test them), the balancing point probably being the Judge PE set up I had. The variation in my setups and those of my FETISH clan mates, despite knowing caps and flip points on resists, revolved around different scenarios of pvp, different play styles, aesthetics, and knowing we could achieve these and be viable without any sort of PPU support. 2.2 with its uncappable weapons/resists/etc and the removal of self buffs (amongst other things) in my eyes has led to the ethic of "well, I might as well have buffs" to squeeze out whatever remaining % people can for pvp. It hasn't led to increased/potential variation at all, if anything the pvp scene is the most homogeneous it's ever been, and no one can genuinely argue with that.

I'm not saying the old system was perfect, or I want a reversion, but it made a lot more pvp classes a lot more viable than the current set up we have.

[DIABLO666]

I have to politely disagree with the above. As an example, I had about 6 or 7 PEs (2 or 3 in FETISH on Terra) across the servers at the end of 06, pre2.2 (all non-WoC), ranging from a Tsu Rifle PE, Pain Easer PE, Healing Light PE, Judge PE, Executioner/Slasher PE, Paw of Tiger PE and a Tangent Plasma Cannon PE.

Each build was an enormous exercise in trading something off (and I put the hours in in Neofrag to test them), the balancing point probably being the Judge PE set up I had. The variation in my setups and those of my FETISH clan mates, despite knowing caps and flip points on resists, revolved around different scenarios of pvp, different play styles, aesthetics, and knowing we could achieve these and be viable without any sort of PPU support. 2.2 with its uncappable weapons/resists/etc and the removal of self buffs (amongst other things) in my eyes has led to the ethic of "well, I might as well have buffs" to squeeze out whatever remaining % people can for pvp. It hasn't led to increased/potential variation at all, if anything the pvp scene is the most homogeneous it's ever been, and no one can genuinely argue with that.

I'm not saying the old system was perfect, or I want a reversion, but it made a lot more pvp classes a lot more viable than the current set up we have.

I'd more say it hasn't led to it cos it hasn't been done properly, the cap is to high and other guns don't seem to be easier to cap or at least aren't as good as they should be for how much closer to get you can get.

The sort of thing I'm looking for is for example if somebody chooses a wyatt build they could easily cap it cos its a low tl gun, this means they have spare points for resists speed or other things. If people were to use say the freeman it would be hard to cap so you would need to put a lot of points into damage skills as such sacrificing other things like speed and resist but you would obviously get more power from your gun. And of course if you really want you could just have a similar setup to the wyatt guy and do similar damage as while your gun is better having less points spend in combat skills means you don't cap it.

This would make people use a variety of builds I think as it would make all guns viable, they would more be for different styles, for example the lower tech guns would generally be for people who want higher resist builds while higher tl guns are for people who are confident in their ability to avoid damage and want to hit hard. It would require a lot of work and it would be nice for a high damage build option for lower level guns but sadly I don't have a clue how you could do that while having all the rest of it.

[J@ck on Cr@ck]

I agree with most of what william said, but I dont like the idea that tradeskillers can do both high end research and construction at the same time. I would love to see some more diversity and freedom in secondary skills.

a hard cap really is better for allowing diversity.

Good point!