there are two diifferent neocrons

[Izeo]

Chuck, lol!

[Dope]

I agree with the sentiment that we're all not so easily sorted into two camps. (Though I guess I'm a 'moar content!' guy regardless of my stances on PvP)

I also agree that all are needed, the number one problem this game has faced has always been population, and the design of the game very specifically requires other players' co-operation (for poking CONST, RES, w.e)

LE's were handled differently in the past, and I believe that it was in an attempt to hold on to slipping populations of players that they were modified, especially back in those early days of MMO development when other games were not nearly as cut-throat or unforgiving. In fact, you'll find that most of them (MMORPGs) got away from open world PvP because it is frustrating to players that dislike unfair conflicts to get ganked, and they then rage-quit. Pops dwindle, and this population-dependent game dies.

I think that LE's have become too exploitable, and in their current incarnation they are hurting the theme and experience of this game (though, mind, still the best MMO I've ever played.) I put up a post in the BP about it, maybe we can get some focus on that and put our design brains toward a good incentive that satisfies the needs of all of the very diverse player types that make up our community.

[Dope]

So, something about this topic occurred to me whilst I was out at the grocery just now.

So, the OP and others (like in the PvP thread) mention that people are leaving LE's in so that they can build to cap *and then* begin PvP -- I think this behavior/perception is an interesting contributing factor to this circumstance. In the old days, there was a wide range of levels and rank all out in the "potentially PvP" spaces (like Pepper Park). This caused many chance encounters between people of various gear levels and rank, meaning that while ganking did occur, it was way more distributed and usually the result of a PK crew (The TG's coming out of the canyon to raid Pepper Park were notorious!). In short, PvP wasn't "only for OP wars" and in fact, the OP wars were the pinnacle that the rest built up to.

What this meant was that you were just as likely to roll up on an enemy lower rank or comparable to you as you were to get smeared by a PA tank. People traveled in pairs for safety, or stuck to safe sectors unless they absolutely needed to go to an unsafe one.

Beginning to ramble, so let me sum up. It is the perception that "PvP is only viable for capped runners" that causes a large part of this rift. It means that only capped runners will voluntarily pull an LE, and worse, *that* leads to only capped players looking for a fight, and thus everyone else being afraid to travel without an LE, or pulling it and being pounded by capped runners while having no viable targets because of the vast population of runners 'waiting for cap" to get into the conflict.

It's de-facto normalization in the classic MMO sense (i.e. you are level x, you must not attempt to fight level y or you will lose.)

If the "must be uber to participate" myth was drowned, there would be more PvP, that would be more meaningful.

[L0KI]

So, something about this topic occurred to me whilst I was out at the grocery just now.

So, the OP and others (like in the PvP thread) mention that people are leaving LE's in so that they can build to cap *and then* begin PvP -- I think this behavior/perception is an interesting contributing factor to this circumstance. In the old days, there was a wide range of levels and rank all out in the "potentially PvP" spaces (like Pepper Park). This caused many chance encounters between people of various gear levels and rank, meaning that while ganking did occur, it was way more distributed and usually the result of a PK crew (The TG's coming out of the canyon to raid Pepper Park were notorious!). In short, PvP wasn't "only for OP wars" and in fact, the OP wars were the pinnacle that the rest built up to.

What this meant was that you were just as likely to roll up on an enemy lower rank or comparable to you as you were to get smeared by a PA tank. People traveled in pairs for safety, or stuck to safe sectors unless they absolutely needed to go to an unsafe one.

Beginning to ramble, so let me sum up. It is the perception that "PvP is only viable for capped runners" that causes a large part of this rift. It means that only capped runners will voluntarily pull an LE, and worse, *that* leads to only capped players looking for a fight, and thus everyone else being afraid to travel without an LE, or pulling it and being pounded by capped runners while having no viable targets because of the vast population of runners 'waiting for cap" to get into the conflict.

It's de-facto normalization in the classic MMO sense (i.e. you are level x, you must not attempt to fight level y or you will lose.)

If the "must be uber to participate" myth was drowned, there would be more PvP, that would be more meaningful.

This post sums up my thoughts entirely.

[nabbl]

Beginning to ramble, so let me sum up. It is the perception that "PvP is only viable for capped runners" that causes a large part of this rift. It means that only capped runners will voluntarily pull an LE, and worse, *that* leads to only capped players looking for a fight, and thus everyone else being afraid to travel without an LE, or pulling it and being pounded by capped runners while having no viable targets because of the vast population of runners 'waiting for cap" to get into the conflict.

It's de-facto normalization in the classic MMO sense (i.e. you are level x, you must not attempt to fight level y or you will lose.)

If the "must be uber to participate" myth was drowned, there would be more PvP, that would be more meaningful.

You, Sir, are right!

I have an uncapped Melee-Tank right now, and do PvP as often as I can. Yesterday I was able to kill a Dissy-Spy in a 1on1. This is still Neocron. It is still possible to kill higher leveled Runners. So put your LE out and learn to kill.

[flib]

The problem with that is the state of balancing makes lower level PVP impossible.

[Garfield]

ye well thats not entirely true. skill (and in my case luck) are some sort of balance when it comes to un-capped PvP. myself down`d a few higher lvl runners while others just completely destroyed my lil apu....

[Running blade]

I'm one of the new players that discovered this gem a few weeks ago.I see people asking for penalties to this,penalties to that,remove the le and so on.I play this game because it has a fabulous cyberpunk atmosphere,it's pretty complex,I like to build new weapons,repair,team up with other players and go hunting plus many other things.PvP is not one of them(one of the reasons is the lack of time to have a very good pvp build to stand a chance to the vets).So you could say I play casual,I just fire up Neocron every few days for some fun.
I understand pvp is part of the game it's just that I don't think any of the parties(pvp&pve) should be punished because they play differently.The population is not big,heck it's quite small for a MMO and after I talked with some players I understand it wasn't big even in the glory years.
Nerfing LE players could lower the population even further or you might end up with a full Plaza 1 and the rest of the areas deserted.
After all I'm not sure what fun will be to grind sewer rats&spiders even more time with a le penalty.

[Dropout]

As long as LE'd players cant join a Clan, Im happy.
Although I wouldnt mind if WoC required the LE to be out..

[Ivan Eres]

There's more to PvP than ganking noobs and zone whoring.

[L0KI]

I'm one of the new players that discovered this gem a few weeks ago.I see people asking for penalties to this,penalties to that,remove the le and so on.I play this game because it has a fabulous cyberpunk atmosphere,it's pretty complex,I like to build new weapons,repair,team up with other players and go hunting plus many other things.PvP is not one of them(one of the reasons is the lack of time to have a very good pvp build to stand a chance to the vets).So you could say I play casual,I just fire up Neocron every few days for some fun.
I understand pvp is part of the game it's just that I don't think any of the parties(pvp&pve) should be punished because they play differently.The population is not big,heck it's quite small for a MMO and after I talked with some players I understand it wasn't big even in the glory years.
Nerfing LE players could lower the population even further or you might end up with a full Plaza 1 and the rest of the areas deserted.
After all I'm not sure what fun will be to grind sewer rats&spiders even more time with a le penalty.

Please believe me when I say your opinion will change.

The PvP in this game is out of this world, especially when there's meaning and politics behind it, which their inevitably will be in such a small, close-knit community.

Welcome to the game anyway

[Jodo]

Please believe me when I say your opinion will change.

The PvP in this game is out of this world, especially when there's meaning and politics behind it, which their inevitably will be in such a small, close-knit community.

Welcome to the game anyway

Not necessarily. I've been playing since NC1 and I can't stand PvP. Like most others back then, I had no LE in. I just want to be left to it, I really enjoy PvE.

[Drachenpaladin]

Not necessarily. I've been playing since NC1 and I can't stand PvP. Like most others back then, I had no LE in. I just want to be left to it, I really enjoy PvE.

^This.
I'm not playing since NC1 but i never l2pvp in this game, the appeal is just not so great.

[gstyle40]

you wont see any lower level pvp until they rebalance the weapons/types. and nabbl if u beat a dissy spy on an uncapped anything said dissy spy flat out sucked, or you're capped in all cept con or something close.

[nabbl]

you wont see any lower level pvp until they rebalance the weapons/types. and nabbl if u beat a dissy spy on an uncapped anything said dissy spy flat out sucked, or you're capped in all cept con or something close.

You would be surprised...
"The Dentist" is just awesome! I am sure that he was not the best PvPer but nevertheless he had the better equipment and was pretty sure capped. And I killed him withg 75 CON. It is in fact not that hard as a Melee-Tank to kill Spies. In fact it is not hard to beat any other class in a 1on1...