Old Models

[Deus Ex Machina]

Since the old thread in which that was discussed is closed and wasn't seperated because of the many ideas, i think I'll open up that one again.
Maybe the mods can insert the postings about Models from the thread of wargolem?

Anyway, my opinion on olf models:

Simple to say: I like the old models WAAAAYY more. The new ones are nice sometimes, but the choice of hair and faces is awful for most classes, for me only very few faces and hairs are a real choice, the others I plainly hate.
One thing that might be easy to do: There actually IS a model changer in the character screen. If one could choose between old and new model, with a change avaiable for old characters via GM or similar, we would soon see if the old ones are popular enough to rework them with higher polygons. Although I even like the ones with lower Polys more. And we have them ingame anyway.
I just loved the visors for spies and the sunglasses for PEs.

[Mokoi]

I can understand that a lot of players prefer the old style and I personally would agree that art direction on NC2 was lacking in some areas (e.g. player models). However, the old models are technically not fit to be used as player models (missing bones / animations), respectivly the other systems handling player models (character creation, outfitter etc.) are not set up to deal with NC1 models. It will involve a good amount of work for that "regression" to take place; work that I would rather see spent on going forward. That said, player models are a topic that is not forgotten and will certainly pop up again during the course of 2013.

[Deus Ex Machina]

Well thats sad, but at least its definitve. Interesting that it affects so much points. For the hell of it I would not be able to remember what the new models can do that the old ones could not i guess, to much time has passed - good to know there is a difference.
Of course if you are just a player an outfitter for old models looks just like the outfitter for the new models :-)
(There were ones for the old models as far as i remember).

If its that much work to "regress" I absolutly agree to let it be and spent the work elsewhere.
For now ;-)

[Drachnyen]

The main reason why the NC1 models are so much better then the NC2 ones is, at least to me and everyone I know, that you could instantly tell what class someone was.

A Tank was a Tank, a Monk a Monk, a PE a PE and a Spy a Spy.

There was pretty much no mistaking a Tank for a PE or Spy, much less a Monk.

With the NC2 models that changed, drastically I might add.

Now, if someone isn't wearing a PA, it's really hard to tell at first glance what class someone is.

That, and the new animations look all kinds of spastic.

In my opinion that is the main point, really.

I don't really need the NC1 models, I need models which I can look at and say "Yeah, that's a Tank" without it actually being a Monk.

That, and non-spastic animations, please.

[William Antrim]

From what I remember it is the new animations that are a problem for the old models to do. Id give up on them in a heartbeat if it meant getting old PE back but they cant do it as Mokoi said.

[Izeo]

I can understand that a lot of players prefer the old style and I personally would agree that art direction on NC2 was lacking in some areas (e.g. player models). However, the old models are technically not fit to be used as player models (missing bones / animations), respectivly the other systems handling player models (character creation, outfitter etc.) are not set up to deal with NC1 models. It will involve a good amount of work for that "regression" to take place; work that I would rather see spent on going forward. That said, player models are a topic that is not forgotten and will certainly pop up again during the course of 2013.

I'm a little confused at this. I actually disagree. There are lots of bad side effects from the NC2 models, which I would consider regression, not advancement.

Things we got from the new models: (aside from the huge aesthetic difference)
- Floating hair/guns stuck on corners
- Reflective floors removed from the game (remember those?) because the NC2 models couldn't be fully reflected with all their multiple sections, as opposed to one singular for NC1 models
- Missing animations stances, which the old models had, like 3rd person equipped animations for tools/psimodules (now we always get our arms down at our sides)
- NC2 animations that don't match the actual action being done - i.e. reloading animation, or "pull weapon off my back" animation
- Double weapon models when you pull a weapon off your back
- Stetchy lips bug
- Holosuit ridiculousness - female spy with with a male beard, for example

My point is, I think the NC2 models, aside from the style difference, made the game look very broken and unfinished. I don't think reverting (or allowing the option of) should be considered as regression.

I never noticed any problems with the models when creating a character in NC1. Finally, I don't remember if there was a "standing/posing" animation for Rokkwear with the NC1 models, but I think just having the character stand still would work just fine, and would probably look less goofy as well.

I still support the option to switch to an NC1 model. : (

[Chuck Norris]

Couldnt agree more with this post seemed like aan all around downgrade to me, firefly models for neocron was bammer

[Mokoi]

I'm a little confused at this. I actually disagree. There are lots of bad side effects from the NC2 models, which I would consider regression, not advancement.

Things we got from the new models: (aside from the huge aesthetic difference)
- Floating hair/guns stuck on corners
- Reflective floors removed from the game (remember those?) because the NC2 models couldn't be fully reflected with all their multiple sections, as opposed to one singular for NC1 models
- Missing animations stances, which the old models had, like 3rd person equipped animations for tools/psimodules (now we always get our arms down at our sides)
- NC2 animations that don't match the actual action being done - i.e. reloading animation, or "pull weapon off my back" animation
- Double weapon models when you pull a weapon off your back
- Stetchy lips bug
- Holosuit ridiculousness - female spy with with a male beard, for example

My point is, I think the NC2 models, aside from the style difference, made the game look very broken and unfinished. I don't think reverting (or allowing the option of) should be considered as regression.

I never noticed any problems with the models when creating a character in NC1. Finally, I don't remember if there was a "standing/posing" animation for Rokkwear with the NC1 models, but I think just having the character stand still would work just fine, and would probably look less goofy as well.

I still support the option to switch to an NC1 model. : (

Firstly, the reflection issue is not due to player models, but relates to the dx9 render mode. Reflections are bound to return at some point in the future (when its done™).
Most of the issues you enlist are "new" features (external weapon models, different hairstyles, Holo PA...).
Sure you can remove the new features to get rid of the bugs, I call that a regression. If we started removing everything from the game that ... well, lets not go down that road.

I agree with you that this stuff needs fixing, but removing features or chunks of the game is not on our agenda.

[Drachnyen]

Firstly, the reflection issue is not due to player models, but relates to the dx9 render mode. Reflections are bound to return at some point in the future (when its done™).
Most of the issues you enlist are "new" features (external weapon models, different hairstyles, Holo PA...).
Sure you can remove the new features to get rid of the bugs, I call that a regression. If we started removing everything from the game that ... well, lets not go down that road.

I agree with you that this stuff needs fixing, but removing features or chunks of the game is not on our agenda.

Are you guys at least considering to "update" the models at some point to make them more distinct, i.e. no more "Is that a Tank, or a Monk? Could be a spy as well."?

That is, in my opinion, one of the biggest points against the NC2 models.

That and the spastic animations.

[Mokoi]

Are you guys at least considering to "update" the models at some point ...

I can understand that there is a demand and some pressure to get stuff fixed that has not been looked at for many years, but keep in mind we have inherited a massive pile of shards and only just started a few months ago.
I have hopes there will be a "fix" for player models, but it will not be something to happen in the near future - it will take time (and money) to get it done properly. So yes, there is awareness for this issue and a very real consideration to tackle it, but until "when its done™" we can not make any promises what so ever.

[Chuck Norris]

it really reflects badly, one of the most important cosmetic features and it is a huge turn off to newer players imo.

[Drachnyen]

[...]So yes, there is awareness for this issue and a very real consideration to tackle it, but until "when its done™" we can not make any promises what so ever.

That's all I wanted to hear.

Thanks a lot for that answer.

[Izeo]

I took the word slightly out of context (posted when tired honestly) but what I meant is that; in any project, if a new feature is added but that feature is unfinished or incorrect, that detracts from the the entire project, rather than contributes to it, and because of this, it would make sense not to have that feature until it's fully finished. Like, the NC1 models had less features (i.e. no weapon on back), but there also weren't any render bugs with the NC1 models either (i.e no missing/incorrect animations, no floating gun etc).

Reflections, well, I noticed the hair and gun is not really a part of the model, but rather seems like a separate object that's "trying" to follow your player. In 3rd person you can tap any movement key (like strafe right) and you can see your own hair detach and re-attach to your head. This is why I assumed a "separate object" like this wouldn't reflect along with the player, but you've said it's DX9 so thats my mistake.

(That said, I know that you, or anyone active now had nothing to do with the models we're talking about, and maybe the Intulo artists never even played the game, lol)

it really reflects badly, one of the most important cosmetic features and it is a huge turn off to newer players imo.

One of the most, or maybe even THE most important cosmetic feature of the game.

But, I gotta ask, what errors occur at the moment, if a GM for example swaps his model to an NC1 private eye? We've all seen GMs set their model to other NC1 models in the past (like Copbot, Sentinel/Cyberguard, Beggar mohawk guy etc), and those NC1 models still work (I think)

(oops, too late on edit)

I think the talking animation was removed too, may be remembering wrong, but I vaguely remember the NC1 models' mouths moving when you typed in chat,, animation length may have even been relative to the length of the text you typed, that was neat

[William Antrim]

(oops, too late on edit)

I think the talking animation was removed too, may be remembering wrong, but I vaguely remember the NC1 models' mouths moving when you typed in chat,, animation length may have even been relative to the length of the text you typed, that was neat

I remember the arm up animation for having a poke tool out all very fondly but I honestly do not ever remember any kind of talking animations.

Personally as much as I do not like the current models it honestly is the last thing I will gripe about at the moment. I think that this is something that can get fixed in NC:Reloaded tbh. For now I would just like a stable platform with the current graphics engine and some balance in the items and weaponry.

That to me would be great.

[Mokoi]

But, I gotta ask, what errors occur at the moment, if a GM for example swaps his model to an NC1 private eye? We've all seen GMs set their model to other NC1 models in the past (like Copbot, Sentinel/Cyberguard, Beggar mohawk guy etc), and those NC1 models still work (I think)

Alright then, here is one obvious example: player model customization.
It affects both the outfitter and the character creation menu, which were altered quite a bit to work with NC2 style player models and are no longer compatible to NC1 models.

Lets start with a simple NC1 model.


Now we access the character customization:


This is where we could stop the horror, but lets continue and check how our new dress fits:


Not as bad as it looked before. Maybe a sync between zones will resolve that:


No, maybe not.

... and again - this is just one issue of many we would have to face when reintroducing NC1 models as an option for players.
Therefore, I highly doubt we will ever see it happen. I can only imagine a proper revamp of the NC1 models using the new system. New "old style" models, if you like

When we say that the amount of issues and thus time required to bring back NC1 player models outweighs the benefit of having that extra choice, we do so for good reason. We can ask you to trust our assessment in this regard, but ultimately, it's your free choice to do so or not.