Brain Imps - Add another stat

[William Antrim]

Brain imps - the rare ones. Marine, SF, Swat etc.

Should they have another stat added to them? Something useful but not overpowering. Like the old +5 to int on the SF/Swat. Perhaps the Marine could have +5 con or dex - something to open up alternative set ups - Pistol tanks and so on.

Obviously numbers would need to be checked to make sure that it doesnt overpower certain classes etc and lead to abuse but the idea i think is sound.

[CMaster]

Nah.

Those chips are already good enough. They're not so much a choice as a simple optimum (unless you're running a multi-MC5 setup or something). Also, pistol tanks are already pretty viable (given you know some weapon balancing that leads to decent TL90-100 pistols), and spies/monks won't give a damn about +5 int - that will only be of any use to PEs, who would better benefit from other changes. Although a + dex Marine might also wind up a PE favourite.

Really, I'd prefer to see people being required to make a few more implant choices and there being less in the way of "great for everyone superchips" rather than more. If people want the int for something, let them think and plan about how they are going to get it.

Of course, the Marine needs fixing anyhow. Right now it isn't a good choice for any setup, which is just silly.

[Netphreak]

Nah.

Those chips are already good enough. They're not so much a choice as a simple optimum (unless you're running a multi-MC5 setup or something). Also, pistol tanks are already pretty viable (given you know some weapon balancing that leads to decent TL90-100 pistols), and spies/monks won't give a damn about +5 int - that will only be of any use to PEs, who would better benefit from other changes. Although a + dex Marine might also wind up a PE favourite.

Really, I'd prefer to see people being required to make a few more implant choices and there being less in the way of "great for everyone superchips" rather than more. If people want the int for something, let them think and plan about how they are going to get it.

Of course, the Marine needs fixing anyhow. Right now it isn't a good choice for any setup, which is just silly.

Problem is we also don't really want to bloat the rare pool even further by creating more chips to help cater for all the other classes and setups out there. That's kind of why the +5 INT on the old SF worked, because while it wasn't hugely useful to a spy it also wasn't a hindrance to them either.
It was however beneficial to PE's getting them within reach of medium belts. I would imagine that it possibly also had some benefit to pistol/rifle using tanks as well. (I also quite like the idea of something like +3 DEX on the Marine but that chip really needs it's STR stats fixed first).

However, if you want to have more 'specialized chips' out there (which actually I think I'd like to see, but see my point below) which require/give people more implant choices then I really think they should do it through the Faction Databases.
I think they should make all level 5 implants available through Faction Databases again, but make them reasonably difficult/tricky to get.
I think would balance things, as it gives everyone plenty of options regarding implant choices and will also benefit us by leaning/taking some stuff out of the rare part pool in the process.


Oh, and I think the malus on implants probably needs looking at as well.

[William Antrim]

I would love to see malus's removed on implants full stop to be honest.

[Torg]

mhn. we need to care for the big picture. pushing boni too much will surely further distort class and weapon balance, while mali are needed to , well, balance the boni. yes, we do share ideas on rebalancing both pve and pvp, but i feel we need to think further. things like bringing PE and APU nearer to the spy, damage-wise. like that. or capping the latter.

[Izeo]

I've always been a little weirded out by the bonus/penalty of implants. Some of them make no difference, and will probably never make any difference, and some of them are big trade-offs.

Like, the Crahn Psychic Power Mask eye implant gives you FCS and PPW, and gives a penalty in hacking, weapon lore, and willpower. How cheesy is that? Spells aren't affected by weapon lore anyway as far as I know, they wouldn't be using willpower, and the hacking penalty is also pretty null. The same is true for all eye implants really: melee eye gives melee, and then a penalty in the other weapon categories, H-C, R-C and P-C.

All the above is doing is encouraging the "specializing" thing, rather than make you think hard and make a tough decision about the penalties -- cheesy no brainers -- but that might be perfectly OK.

However, then, you have implants like Hearts, which no matter what penalize you in something useful. I'm pretty sure every heart either penalizes your speed or health, making it very unclear (at least, to me) which one I should use.

(Conclusion: I have no opinion on whether penalties should stay or go, but I think they're weird. lol.)

[Torg]

I've always been a little weirded out by....

laugh as much as you like, but i'm firmly convinced this exactly is one of the best parts of neocron. it's weird. it's gothic. sometimes insane. doesn't make sense. we don't understand large parts of it. it feels real, in a way. it's a world of it's own. that's (in part) why neocron is superior to any other MMO out there. weirdness. unpredictability. authenticity.

[Izeo]

laugh as much as you like, but i'm firmly convinced this exactly is one of the best parts of neocron. it's weird. it's gothic. sometimes insane. doesn't make sense. we don't understand large parts of it. it feels real, in a way. it's a world of it's own. that's (in part) why neocron is superior to any other MMO out there. weirdness. unpredictability. authenticity.

I like it. Can I use this argument in defense of the CityCom? ah haha.. .. I have problems. /cry

[William Antrim]

You like not understanding how things work? I hope youre not a scientist Torg!

[CMaster]

Problem is we also don't really want to bloat the rare pool even further by creating more chips to help cater for all the other classes and setups out there.

No need to make new rare imps. Aside from the fact that there are plenty of other ways we could make imps available, there are already more than enough implants, that support a wide variety of options (although an extra line in the Int and Con space might not go amiss). The problem is lack of reasons to use them, which is something that is more down to other systems than imps (although a spot of implant rebalancing, especially nerfing MC5s, would help with that). Why would anyone spec int chips, or any con chips save PPR, or any eye save the obvious combat, or any chips that just boost weapon skill at the moment?
Make these stats (especially weapon skill) matter more, and less imps that do everything, and you'll see a proliferation of setups from the current "stuff as many MC5s in as possible, then fill the gap with rares" that we get at the moment.

I would love to see malus's removed on implants full stop to be honest.

I've always been a little weirded out by the bonus/penalty of implants. Some of them make no difference, and will probably never make any difference, and some of them are big trade-offs.

I suggested this somewhere ages ago. I'm really not sure what purpose malus on most implants serve. The big negative for an implant is the opportunity cost of not having another implant in that slot - that is the tradeoff you make. In general, the negatives are either: something that makes no difference at all (like WPW on psi imps) or something that matters, but the trade off is such that it's always a good choice to use it. There are some imps that have a negative that matters, but the tradeoff is not worth it, so nobody uses it. Hearts get even weirder - because it's all in one stat, and because every class has similar goals from con, there's almost always one heart that works better for 90+ % of builds than the other. Making it not a choice at all.

I'm not against malus on implants where hybrid prevention is desired (but really, other than APU/PPU hybrids, how do any hybrids hurt? A pistol/rifle or melee/heavy user isn't exactly overpowered). Or where big benefits are offset by big negatives in "kami" type implants, that will only be useful in marginal situations. But the current set of negatives seem like they are there "just because" rather than for any coherent reason, and could easily be removed (with, in a few cases, the reduction of bonuses eg: if a psi chip currently gives + PSU and -HCK, it should probably give slightly less +PSU afterwards, to keep it similarly points efficent (not that all monks hack, but yeah)).

[Torg]

You like not understanding how things work? I hope youre not a scientist Torg!

science is not about understanding things, but admitting your lack of understanding, so you can start gathering vast amounts of data to form a theory from. so in the end you'd at least have a theory on things you don't understand. nobody understands gravity, or quantum physics, or space-time-bend, we're all just satisfied whith knowing there are scientist who have something to say about those topics.

neocron, on the other hand, is not a matter of science, but a great work of art. art is meant to express the unexpressable, not about understanding.

no, i, Torg, am not a scientist. i'll leave researching to my fellow runners. i'm just a humble guy with a sniper rifle. when talking about my meatspace avatar, he's not a scientist either, but working in the media, right between art and tech. out there, on his barren, cruel, post-apocalyptic homeserver.

[William Antrim]

Nice reply. I was just having a bit of banter Torg. I had visions of you coming in to work one day, scratching your head and going no still dont understand it and then clocking off before lunchtime and going home to fire up nc.

I am a fan of reworking implants though, obviously. Just to stay on topic.