Woc Xp for a Private Eye

[Doc Holliday]

So. At the advice of Lykos im making this thread.

This has been discussed several times in different threads im sure but i want to propose this as a formal change to the Private Eye class. Instead of making him/her grind out to 257m xp for the chance to use woc he should have a lower requirement.

As i see it 257 is derived as the magical number overcap including the 100m needed for woc. So either do this one of 2 ways.

Option A would be to enforce a requirement of 100m xp over the dex requirement for the PE at level 80 Dex.

Option B given the way the PE earns his xp would be to adjust this. What ever the percentage is of the 100m xp over the dex 100 cap requirement should be applied in the same way at dex 80 for a pe. For sake of arguement if its a 25% over cap requirement of the total xp for woc one on a spy then this should be the same for the private eye. I know what i want to say but im not sure im explaining it correctly.

theoretically speaking to try and explain this better. If the magical number for a spy was 50% of his dex xp at dex 100 then it would be X amount. So the same should apply for the pe. 50% of his dex xp at level 80 should be the same magical number that he needs to hit for his woc reqs. Does that make sense?

[kane]

Many problems with PE's from what I hear. I think this would be at least one step in the right step! Good suggestions.

[Sorin]

I can't find the information anywhere, but don't PEs acquire XP in their mainskill at a lower rate than the other three classes, where their mainskill goes to 100? If that's the case, I think it makes more sense that the XP required to reach the WOC levels be reflective of the amount of work required to reach a certain XP point. If PEs don't gain XP at the same percentage-rate to their mainskill as the other 3 classes do, then it's going to take them a hell of a lot longer to get to that same XP point - and I doubt the reward is reflective of this significant extra work. Regardless of how the WOC figures work behind the scenes, each class should reach the end-point after a proportionate amount of work. Otherwise, one character class is being, possibly unintentionally, punished for something they have no control over.

If I'm off base, it's because it's been quite a while since I played.

I think that proportionality is the point you were trying to get at.

[William Antrim]

Yeah Sorin I think you nailed it. I have the same impression.

I will attempt to clarify with actual figures what he is getting at.

Woc is 257m XP currently.

The spy caps (We use the spy due to comparable skill only) dex level at 157m XP and then he needs 100m overcap. This is the 257m overcap. So it is in effect roughly 60% (without doing the maths) of his total XP needed to cap his dex at 100.

The PE caps at 40m so if he was to get 60% more of his total XP that would be another 25 mill over the top roughly. Due to the PE gaining his skills spread over 4 of his stats rather than 2 main ones I think this whole thing needs to addressed in great detail (hence my role of the PE thread a little while ago).

Currently the PE needs 220m over his cap which is ridiculous.

I think a great short term solution would be to reduce the PE to needing 100m overcap (so he would WOC at 140m total xp - with current levelling speeds even a casual player could probably achieve this in a relatively short space of time - Woc should take weeks of committment to levelling but not months or years and it currently feels like years for a PE!

A good person to comment on this might be Der Julu as he has recently Wocced a pe using a redeemer. I am not sure how many hours he put into it but he would be in a better position to comment than me perhaps as he wocced his guy recently (on Titan).


I hope this is clearer bro.

[DER_julu]

Woc should take weeks of committment to levelling but not months or years and it currently feels like years for a PE!

3 weeks, give or take 2 days. this is 3 weeks of doing absolutely nothing but use the highest TL rifle i could find, drugging up to use it and hunt firemobs / hoverbots without end.
tried regants, which quite frankly sucked donkey dicks (apart from being boring as hell), since you get shit xp when teaming (especially on a PE => 4 stat-xp-gain); chaos cave, the same; maybe someone else got a simpler solution (droning, i know... -.-), but that's the way i did it.

once you are done, you start to feel a little different about things emotionally, but rationally, yeah, the needed xp needs to go down, or the xp-gain needs to be addressed - i'd go with the first idea, for obvious reasons (even if i bite my fist out of frustration if everyone else woc's his PE in a matter of days in the future ^^); make it cap+100 mil, and the whole affair would be more than fair...

[Dribble Joy]

As far as I remember, PEs gain dex xp at 80% that of spies. Their cap level is less than 80% total xp than that of a spy (something like 28m), so they actually reach cap faster. However they have the same xp level as everyone else for reaching WoC, this means they reach WoC much slower, especially since they can't use the higher TL weapons that grant more xp and kill mobs faster.

Setting PE WoC to 100m rather than 257m might be a good idea.

[William Antrim]

How many man hours spent though Julu? I mean I can say I have played for weeks but I might have only played once or twice for a few hours in that week whereas you might do the same but have played for 20 or more hours in the same time frame.


Dribble Joy

Do you know this for a fact in 2.2 or is it a hazy memory?

If it is a fact I can see no reason why XP gain should be altered for a PE (80 dex gained at 80% of the rate seems fair). However with the way a PE gets his XP spread across 4 stats I wonder if this is completely accurate.

I think that we are all agreed PE woc XP requirement needs a nerf and sharpish. Just how far that is is another thing.

I think it would most certainly alleviate some of the "remove WOC" arguments too. I know I personally would be a LOT happier.

[CMaster]

William, you seem to be under a slight misapprehension about how XP gain works.

XP is split into the different mainskills not by class, but by action performed. For example, using a rifle contributes to Dex (mostly), Int and Str (not very much). Using a psi spell gives to Psi and Int. Researching give to Int only, while constructing to Int, Dex, Str. Being shot gives Con (and I think str). Cannons give everything except psi! (there may or may not be a difference between HT and LT weapons)

The only situation in which PE receives XP to 4 skills as oppose to 2 for other classes is team XP. XP that comes from the team pool is split between the receiving class's primary stats - everything bar con for the PE, the two skills that cap at 100 for everybody else.

This is complicated even further (as is typical for Neocron) by the fact that each class then has a "learning rate" for each skill. The PE's learning rate for dex is lower than that for spy's dex, hence the slower progress. (This is also why say, capping your spy's psi by going APU and overcapping isn't really practical)

To me, the fairest thing to do would be make PE WoC 100mil over cap, just like for everyone else. Even then, strength WoC would still be some sort of epic, months-long challenge. Yes, WoCing for a PE would be harder - but then capping is easier, so swings and roundabouts.

[Dribble Joy]

Being shot gives Con (and I think str).

Piercing and force dmg do.

Any action that uses a subskill will gain you xp in that mainskill. Some actions will give you xp in other areas as well, like cannons giving con xp and dex weapons giving str xp.

Dribble Joy

Do you know this for a fact in 2.2 or is it a hazy memory?

Hazy memory from the whole of NC. As far as I am aware, PE xp gain has never changed.

[William Antrim]

No misapprehension from me. I understand perfectly how a pe gets his xp. I have levelled six up in nc. I made a few assumptions yes but I'm not really interested in what happens to the other stats. I figured a pe will team due to the new teaming rules and I am also assuming that under current pve situation he will level as rifles in a team so yes he will gain xp as I described above. No misinterpretation here but thank you for the clarification for those who might not know.

[CMaster]

I thought NeoTerm had the numbers of the learning rates on it, can't find them now though.
Maybe someone with access to the codebase could tell us what they currently are?

[Netphreak]

I'd be happy if they just made Paineaser and RoG competitive again, but lowering XP requirement for WoC on PE's would be nice too.

[Doc Holliday]

@ Sorin/Will.

Yes absolutely. Make it quantitative rather than a hard limit. Either way works honestly but it would serve to fix another retarded idea put in by people who should have been taken out behind the server room and shot after 2.2 launched.

[Ghostface_Speak]

I'd be happy if they just made Paineaser and RoG competitive again, but lowering XP requirement for WoC on PE's would be nice too.

what would be REALLY nice: all those things.There are weapons that no one uses since they're "shit",the only valuable weapons reachable for PE's are WoC.Change the useless weapons AND lower WOC Xp req's so that people dont HAVE to level WoC.It will be a matter of preference again,not a requirement to compete.

[Netphreak]

It also dawned on me that the implant bonus changes of 2.2 probably hit the PE the hardest (the old +5 DEX imps) making getting the required DEX to use the WoC guns more difficult than it should be.