[R#175/6] Test Patch Discussion

[Daza400]

The problem with tanks vs. everyone else is right now the balance for weapons is this:
pistols used to be high damage, low range, low weapon lore reqs(they sort of still like this)
rifles are slightly less damage but max range and require a large amount of weapon lore to be effective

but then you have cannons which are just... all the above except slower

[Dribble Joy]

I'd also try to avoid 'roles' for the classes and subclasses. A tank should be just as good as an APU or any other combat char in a fight. Otherwise you'll just end up with tankocron, monkocron, hybridocron or similar again.

[William Antrim]

Put some damage over time back on some weapons then. That will counter the stealthers.

[DER_julu]

imo the biggest problem you've got as a PE nowadays is the uselessness of lower TL lowtech weapons - ever tried a terminator ? the pain easer ? libby anyone ? even if you hit, you don't do enough damage to seriously get an opponents health down, since the TL40 healtool is pretty powerful. this makes resist-setups almost useless, at least that's how i experienced it as long as i played an PE (since 2.2, first on mars, now titan);
if you look at lower TL hightech-weapons, we got the RoG (for riflers) which is basically rubbish in PvP because most of the time the hits won't register (if they would, it would be a pretty sweet gun); that leaves you with 2 choices: sacrifice PSIuse to dex, and be a shittier version of a spy, or go woc. same with pistols, since the judge does almost zero damage as far as i remember, but i'd love to be corrected by anyone who knows more about this than me, i've not tested it yet...

solution: boost guns like the terminator with stacking damage as before; give them poison-mods (not sure about that one, but it might work), and boost the damage of guns like the judge. and if the RoG would work, that would be the absolute top icing of the cake.

p.s. yes, i know about and love the desperado, but as far as i remember even that one could do with a TINY boost in damage...

[Kame]

A self buffed, dex based PE should be weaker than an unbuffed tank, but a self buffed psi based PE should be tougher, damage intake wise.

[Dropout]

A self buffed, dex based PE should be weaker than an unbuffed tank, but a self buffed psi based PE should be tougher, damage intake wise.

A psi based PE wouldnt be able to do ANY kind of damage though.. So I dont see the point, at all..

[Dribble Joy]

imo the biggest problem you've got as a PE nowadays is the uselessness of lower TL lowtech weapons

As mentioned in various threads, all the imps and items that add to main skills also add to sub skills. So the higher the tl of the weapon you are using, you're also better at using. Splitting the imps into +mainstat and +subskill would bring the low-techs into (better) contention.

that leaves you with 2 choices: sacrifice PSIuse to dex, and be a shittier version of a spy, or go woc. same with pistols, since the judge does almost zero damage as far as i remember, but i'd love to be corrected by anyone who knows more about this than me, i've not tested it yet...

Judge actually does good dmg, but is crippled by it's small clip and appalling accuracy with mid-lock. If it had a 40 round clip it would actually out dmg/time an xbow.

A psi based PE wouldnt be able to do ANY kind of damage though.. So I dont see the point, at all..

I think he means one using a dex glove to get higher tl weapons.

[Dropout]

I think he means one using a dex glove to get higher tl weapons.

A self buffed, dex based PE should be weaker than an unbuffed tank, but a self buffed psi based PE should be tougher, damage intake wise.

Are you sure?

[William Antrim]

This whole TC contributing to damage bullshit is what caused the problem for Low tech. Whoever suggested that idea clearly didnt think it through.

[dWintermut3]

I'd also try to avoid 'roles' for the classes and subclasses. A tank should be just as good as an APU or any other combat char in a fight. Otherwise you'll just end up with tankocron, monkocron, hybridocron or similar again.

Quoted for absolute truth.


Based on almost 10 years of experience in over a dozen different MMOs, I've seen the pitfalls of "strong typing" firsthand. Unless the game's balance is absolutely impeccable the only real way to go is to equalize damage for all classes, and mostly equalize survivability using different methods.

The best way to achieve class "uniqueness" is in the "other stuff" they get and the method they use to go about doing said damage/getting said survivability.

In a traditional MMO a good way to preserve uniqueness is to give some classes their survivability through high avoidance (the stereotypical "rogue" role), some through stuns/mezzes/aggro control (the "mage" route) some through high armor and health pools (the "fighters" "warriors" etc) and some through self-healing (the "cleric" or "paladin").

Neocron can maintain its uniqueness and avoid traditional MMORPG typing but the end principle has to be the same for the game to work. Nanite-based healing/resist boosting, self-psi-healing, resists and self-resist-boosting, could all be tuned to give roughly the same "effective health pool" (health pool divided by incoming damage/second minus heal/second to give the effective combat lifespan of the character).

[William Antrim]

Quoted for absolute truth.


Based on almost 10 years of experience in over a dozen different MMOs, I've seen the pitfalls of "strong typing" firsthand. Unless the game's balance is absolutely impeccable the only real way to go is to equalize damage for all classes, and mostly equalize survivability using different methods.

The best way to achieve class "uniqueness" is in the "other stuff" they get and the method they use to go about doing said damage/getting said survivability.

In a traditional MMO a good way to preserve uniqueness is to give some classes their survivability through high avoidance (the stereotypical "rogue" role), some through stuns/mezzes/aggro control (the "mage" route) some through high armor and health pools (the "fighters" "warriors" etc) and some through self-healing (the "cleric" or "paladin").

Neocron can maintain its uniqueness and avoid traditional MMORPG typing but the end principle has to be the same for the game to work. Nanite-based healing/resist boosting, self-psi-healing, resists and self-resist-boosting, could all be tuned to give roughly the same "effective health pool" (health pool divided by incoming damage/second minus heal/second to give the effective combat lifespan of the character).

The simplest most effective way to do this is to use Tech Level as the initial balancing of the weaponry with some form of uniform bonus/negative dependent on the class (ie pistols rifles and cannons). P.s In order to make Melee good it needs to have some insane rate of fire also. This I think would be the best way to simply benefit them from the lack of range.

[Dribble Joy]

This whole TC contributing to damage bullshit is what caused the problem for Low tech. Whoever suggested that idea clearly didnt think it through.

Back in NC1 there wasn't any high tl low-tech weapons. If there were, then there would be no reason to spec TC if you could use a weapon of similar tl but wasn't high-tech.

As there are now high tl low-tech weapons (EoF, desperado, libra, craftman's dream, etc.), then TC has to be a meaningful investment.

Plus, how many high tech weapons are actually used aside from the ones that clearly have issues? Redeemer? FL? Exec? BoH? Slasher?

The issue is specific weapons, not low-tech as a whole. It doesn't help that the very highest tl weapons are high tech, which given the implant/PA system only promotes reaching for the highest tl possible.

[William Antrim]

I am aware of NC1 I was here then

I prefer the old system is what I am saying. As a low tech pe I only need my Special Forces chip and my backbone to give me the required dex for my terminator. I didnt need to use PA - I actually preferred life without it. I could then dedicate my other brainslots to damage chips and resist chips. The speccing of tech combat while it was a points sink was worth doing because it got you access to the gucci guns. Happy with that sure. You paid a price in resists/agility and got more damage. Simple and effective.


Currently you have high tech combat which adds to damage for everyone with TC and then you have useless low tech weapons like the Craftsman's dream. Who the hell thought they would bring in a low tech spy! It pisses in the face of spies and pes have to drug like a madman and gimp to get up to that dex.

IMO low tech weapon TL's need to be lowered across the board and allow them all to be reachable earlier (across all of the disciplines). This way low tech users can have them at endgame with decent damage and high tech users can have something of a break from their normal run of guns and use something different to level with.

I stand on my previous comment however. The TC contribution to damage is bs. If there is a requirement for it contribute to damage (at all) then it needs to be reduced significantly. The damage output difference between my Wyatt Earp and my friends Storm Laser is almost 3x as much with roughly similar skills. I realise he has much higher HC probably than I do PC but seriously. I cannot quote exact figures but the two weapons are 2 TL's apart. The damage should be higher on a cannon I agree but not 300% more.

[CMaster]

The issue isstill weapon balancing, not the TC contribution really. That said, the TC contribution does need to be looked at carefully - if it's easier to skill for TC weapons, then HT needs to lose any inherent bonus over LT for a start.

[Dribble Joy]

The speccing of tech combat while it was a points sink was worth doing because it got you access to the gucci guns. Happy with that sure. You paid a price in resists/agility and got more damage. Simple and effective.

Currently you have high tech combat which adds to damage for everyone with TC

It only affects HT weapons, not LT. HT users have to give up points elsewhere so they either have lower AGL and/or PC/RC.
Just the same as before. It's simply a different sytle of weapons use.

and then you have useless low tech weapons like the Craftsman's dream. Who the hell thought they would bring in a low tech spy! It pisses in the face of spies and pes have to drug like a madman and gimp to get up to that dex.

IMO low tech weapon TL's need to be lowered across the board and allow them all to be reachable earlier (across all of the disciplines). This way low tech users can have them at endgame with decent damage and high tech users can have something of a break from their normal run of guns and use something different to level with.

What exactly is your argument? What's wrong with having high TL LT weapons? What wrong with LT spies? The whole point is to have viable choices across the board, high and low TL for both HT and LT users. The current system promotes highest TL possible and certain weapons are broken, TC is not the issue.

I cannot quote exact figures but the two weapons are 2 TL's apart. The damage should be higher on a cannon I agree but not 300% more.

Then find a suitable mob and test max dmg with the same ammo mod. Multiply by the RoF for the dmg/time and get a value for each weapon.