Dear KK (Kirk); please, please do something.

**Elric** · 02-09-11, 15:24

Quality stuff!

IP explanation really makes sense now, hope that Gamingo dont abuse nor underestimate the talent they have at Reakktor.

Had the pleasure of chatting with Rift devs myself through work and they were also really decent types, must be a dev thing lol.

Great info bud, look forward to hearing from Kirk.

**Biglines** · 02-09-11, 16:44

Firstly, great that he contacted someone like that, and good to at least get some involvement. Hopefully he'll feel up to including the rest of us at some point, but at least there's progress

as to the "free time", anything a company does to develop its own titles is "free time", so calling it free time is weird, because it's not like it's done for non-profit, it's done so subscriptions can be restarted and they can earn money from their own IP again. (that said, I'm sure that atm it's more profitable to work on BP since that's where the money is coming from, so in a sense it's "free-time", as it's an investment in the future, instead of immediate cash return, unless KK really doesn't pay their programmers for developing their own games

) It might however be a simple case of miss communication calling it free time

as a question though, did he answer why they completely ignored us for 2 years and the communication is so utterly abysmal? A simple post takes 5 minutes, a well-written post with future repercussions takes an hour. Either of those would have relieved so much grief.

**Kirk Lenke** · 02-09-11, 17:01

on a short notice: in their private time

Originally Posted by Biglines

...

as to the "free time", anything a company does to develop its own titles is "free time", so calling it free time is weird, because it's not like it's done for non-profit, it's done so subscriptions can be restarted and they can earn money from their own IP again. (that said, I'm sure that atm it's more profitable to work on BP since that's where the money is coming from, so in a sense it's "free-time", as it's an investment in the future, instead of immediate cash return, unless KK really doesn't pay their programmers for developing their own games

) It might however be a simple case of miss communication calling it free time

Short notice: no I haven't but as you can see, I am following threads. Ignoring would mean that do not give a dime about anything being said etc.
We simply had and have a s***load of work to do

as a question though, did he answer why they completely ignored us for 2 years and the communication is so utterly abysmal? A simple post takes 5 minutes, a well-written post with future repercussions takes an hour. Either of those would have relieved so much grief.

**L0KI** · 02-09-11, 17:10

Originally Posted by Biglines

Firstly, great that he contacted someone like that, and good to at least get some involvement. Hopefully he'll feel up to including the rest of us at some point, but at least there's progress

as to the "free time", anything a company does to develop its own titles is "free time", so calling it free time is weird, because it's not like it's done for non-profit, it's done so subscriptions can be restarted and they can earn money from their own IP again. (that said, I'm sure that atm it's more profitable to work on BP since that's where the money is coming from, so in a sense it's "free-time", as it's an investment in the future, instead of immediate cash return, unless KK really doesn't pay their programmers for developing their own games

) It might however be a simple case of miss communication calling it free time

as a question though, did he answer why they completely ignored us for 2 years and the communication is so utterly abysmal? A simple post takes 5 minutes, a well-written post with future repercussions takes an hour. Either of those would have relieved so much grief.

By free time, as Kirk just said himself, I mean personal time - ie, after office hours.

**Biglines** · 02-09-11, 17:30

lol okay, wow, I jumped to conclusions too soon again. I apologize to the developers. That said, why doesn't reakktor work on it on reakktors time then? surely gamigo isn't the boss on everything reakktor can or cannot do? does gamigo pay the developers directly for working on BP, or reakktor?

For all my criticism on the work on neocron itself I hereby apologize to the developers, I assumed that KK would pay the developers for working on neocron.

It could also explain the lack of communication (though I still think it would have stopped a lot of grief if this kind of information had simply been given out years ago, simply a quick post explaining the situation).

**Brammers** · 02-09-11, 17:50

Originally Posted by Biglines

lol okay, wow, I jumped to conclusions too soon again. I apologize to the developers. That said, why doesn't reakktor work on it on reakktors time then? surely gamigo isn't the boss on everything reakktor can or cannot do? does gamigo pay the developers directly for working on BP, or reakktor?

This may help http://www.techhaven.org/neocron/new...-reakktor.html

Read and think about it. The read it again, and think about it again.

1) BP is the main source of income for Reakktor.
2) Gamigo owns part of KK, so they do have a bit of say on how KK is run.
3) KK do have to pay the devs. It's much respected that the devs have given their free time to do some work on Neocron, but the devs still need to pay their own bills!
4) I think it's safe to say, that if KK didn't focus on BP, there would be no Neocron.

**Biglines** · 02-09-11, 19:48

I read that when it was posted, I've remembered it now, and I know what it means concerning BP, it doesn't concern any of my questions though (neither do your points, tho I agree with them).

What i meant with "does gamigo pay the devs or gamigo", is whether KK lends all its developers to gamigo on a project basis, or if gamigo pays KK for work on BP. In the last case I just don't get why part of KK's capital isn't used to actually pay the developers to work on neocron. If gamigo wants KK only to work on BP, why not just buy the whole company?

Note, it might sound too negative or critical, at the moment I'm just trying to get more information on which to base any opinions I might form. By "I don't get why" I literally mean I don't get it, and would like to know about it.

**Kamuix99** · 02-09-11, 20:34

All in all, I think it's save to say my respect to KK for their efforts on NC. At least by now the community got aware that you didn't forget your own game.

The problem at hand seemed to be similar as that in Black Prophecy: Communication. When you let us know some news from time to time, people won't feel frustrated and left alone

**yavimaya** · 03-09-11, 00:46

Biglines,
Gamigo (would) pay KK, KK pay thier employees an hourly rate.
Since all the money comes from Gamigo at the moment and it is being paid for work on BP, they (should) not be able to "split" funds and pay employees for working on NC.

As far as gamigo are concerned if they are paying money and it is not going towards the development of BP, then why are they paying ? (also it would be breaking contracts (?) ).

I dont know if you will understand that, but the situation seems pretty clear to me, i hope i have explained it well enough.

**Noldus** · 03-09-11, 02:34

Reakktor is hiring (devs and artists). I have no idea how long ago this appeared on their website, but it is kinda funny coincidence that I only noticed this about same time Mr. Lenke magically re-appeared in the Neocron forums/this thread.

Coincidence or just more staff for BP...?

**CoreInsanity** · 03-09-11, 03:16

I am glad to see there was a reply of some kind to this. Interesting to know the developers were working in their free time when they made the patch. Thanks to the developers who did this

Given that you weren't being paid that makes it completely different in my eyes.

Also didn't know you couldn't have the devs work on NC during work hours. That would explain some things.

Glad to see KK are still interested in NC, thanks for the reply.

**Biglines** · 03-09-11, 10:56

Originally Posted by yavimaya

Biglines,
Gamigo (would) pay KK, KK pay thier employees an hourly rate.
Since all the money comes from Gamigo at the moment and it is being paid for work on BP, they (should) not be able to "split" funds and pay employees for working on NC.

As far as gamigo are concerned if they are paying money and it is not going towards the development of BP, then why are they paying ? (also it would be breaking contracts (?) ).

I dont know if you will understand that, but the situation seems pretty clear to me, i hope i have explained it well enough.

hehe, the point is, just like me, you're just guessing. a company that gets paid for a service, is paid as a company for that service, the company itself has to decide how much manpower to put on providing that service. Of course it is possible that KK simply needs all their developers for providing that service, but it sure isn't normal business policy to work exclusively for one company (here in the Netherlands, a freelancer isn't even allowed to work exclusively for one company, you have to have at least 3 customers in order to call yourself a business (else you're just a part of that one company)).

If gamigo only pays KK enough to keep their developers paid, KK has a bad deal (of course it could be that because of the money troubles they had to accept such a deal, but it's still a bad deal if it doesn't provide KK with enough capital to exist beyond BP).

but to explain, I am certainly not bashing the developers (the people paid by KK), hell, they're angels if they actually work on a company's property in their own time just for helping us with our gaming experience. I just don't get how in a business, employees do not get paid for developing the business' property. This has nothing to do with time, but with choosing how money is spent (time is created by hiring more people).

Of course I could be all wrong in every single one of my assumptions, which is why I am addressing this to the only person that actually knows what's going on, which is Kirk Lenke. Noone else on this forum (except maybe other KK employees), knows what is going on at KK, so I am not addressing this post to anyone except KK. Of course anyone else can post their opinion like I'm doing, but only KK can actually answer it.

**zii** · 03-09-11, 16:07

I am heartened to read that the developers put their free-time into the patch. I am not surprised that they had to. I wholeheartedly appreciate this.

Please pass on my regards to the developers.

**zii** · 03-09-11, 17:22

Originally Posted by Biglines

(here in the Netherlands, a freelancer isn't even allowed to work exclusively for one company, you have to have at least 3 customers in order to call yourself a business (else you're just a part of that one company)). .

In which case I know many IT freelancers in The Netherlands who run afoul of that rule.

Additionally, this may be the case in NL, but it is certainly not the case elsewhere.

**L0KI** · 03-09-11, 17:46

Originally Posted by zii

I am heartened to read that the developers put their free-time into the patch. I am not surprised that they had to. I wholeheartedly appreciate this.

Please pass on my regards to the developers.

Agreed. It shocked me too.

Thread: Dear KK (Kirk); please, please do something.

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