PvP debate - Shield Overcasting

[Brammers]

The old way to take down a PPU in NC2.1 (ie before the big balancing patch) was.

1. The APU had to cast the Holy-debuff on the PPU. (Not sure that is the right name of the weapon, and also it was a APU weapon)
2. Once the PPU was de-buffed, someone would quickly cast noob shelter and deflector. (Usually a PE or a PPU) But often a noob heal was all that was needed.
3. Everyone shoots the PPU dead.

In NC1 to 2.1 The PPU had no chance to fully re-buff himself with his own stronger holy self-buffs, since it wasn't possible to override this. You either had to escape to the underground, and get a APU on your side to de-buff you.

Also some clans out there were so good and quick at this tactic, you often didn't know it had happen until you was dead. Whether this was by genuine skill, or by hacks, I don't know.

NC 2.2 The Game has changed... (Unlike in Tron, the graphics haven't!)

1. The PPU had to cast the Holy-unprotector on the PPU.
2. Once the PPU was de-buffed, someone would quickly cast noob protector, and deflector.
3. If the PPU is awake, he will usually spot this, and re-cast his shields.
4. Everyone then tries to shoots the PPU dead.

Now what it shouldn't be possible to do is for someone to overcast their own shields over you whether strength/quality they are over your own shields, which does sound like what's happening here.

And yes, it's a shitty tactic. Isn't this a game supposed to be where you show off your l33t PvP skills, not your n00b-buffing skills?

[CMaster]

The old way to take down a PPU in NC2.1 (ie before the big balancing patch) was.

1. The APU had to cast the Holy-debuff on the PPU. (Not sure that is the right name of the weapon, and also it was a APU weapon)
2. Once the PPU was de-buffed, someone would quickly cast noob shelter and deflector. (Usually a PE or a PPU) But often a noob heal was all that was needed.
3. Everyone shoots the PPU dead.

Noob healing didn't really need any antibuffing especially as HAB didn't remove shields. Noob heal was just something that could be thrown on when people had a chance - remember that heals only lasted 15 seconds. The big problem with this technique was that if performed properly, it was uncounterable. The enemy PPU could start casting the level 25 shelter before the APU had finished with the HAB. The targeted PPU would only have less than a second to see that their shields had gone before being hit with a lower level shield. Even if they noticed straight away and started rebuffing, it would be too late.

1. The PPU had to cast the Holy-unprotector on the PPU.
2. Once the PPU was de-buffed, someone would quickly cast noob protector, and deflector.
3. If the PPU is awake, he will usually spot this, and re-cast his shields.
4. Everyone then tries to shoots the PPU dead.

Honestly, unless the enemy PPU was both colourblind and playing in 1st person, there's not much point in the noob buffs in 2.2 - all you are doing is giving the target PPU a bit more protection while they get their buffs up. However, with 3 shields, all of which can degrade and a holy heal which isn't as powerful as the old one, being hit by unprotector with a bunch of enemies on you places in a difficult situation already.

[Biglines]

Biglines: You seem to have forgotten about antibuffs. A rezzing PPU has no hope if he's spotted, because he can just get antibuffed. He then has to break the rez to reshield or die straight away - and if his attackers are using a mix of weapons, with 3 shields to cast these days it can be pretty hard still. Same applies to lone PPUs left at the end - they are going to get a constant stream of antibuffs dumped on them. So I can't say I agree with you about necessity at all.

There are also some very, very good reasons why PPUs aren't as vulnerable as their fighters.

true, but an antibuff takes about 80% of ur psipool, and is easily countered if u have 2-3 ppus rezzing at the same time

so true, its not a necessity, but i've never seen antibuff work against a good ppu, recasting simply costs way less psi pool than antibuffing. I don't think ive ever been killed by antibuffs, only by overcasting, extreme focus or sandwiches.

plus, the rezz fail circle is actually quite large, making clipping while rezzing a viable option in some cases, plus most rezzes are done in hiding (using teamplay to lure the fight away from the rezzes)

the point is, it's put especially in the game, otherwise a foreign shield wouldn't be able to overcast a self-shield, as foreign shields are always weaker. it gives a new option to take down enemy ppus, and it's counterable b y planning and skill on the part of the ppu

[CMaster]

the point is, it's put especially in the game, otherwise a foreign shield wouldn't be able to overcast a self-shield, as foreign shields are always weaker.

Nope. It's in the game because of a programming screwup. It's there so that foreign-cast holy can overwrite a PE or Spy's weaker self-cast shields.

And yeah, teamwork is used to ensure rezzing goes ahead. It's also used to prevent rezzes - shield degradation means that spending ~30 seconds taking continuous fire from just 2 good-damage fighters is a pretty shifty proposition even without debuffs, damage boost etc. I really don't see the necessity. (I would however, like to see PPUs made a bit less effective. We were close to right at the start of 2.2, but they got buffed again to the point where 1:1 fighter:PPU ratios are alarmingly favourable.)

[Biglines]

antibuff is so easy to counter, it takes ages to cast, it makes a clear sound when cast, it's pretty much useless in the game.

granted it's possible it's a screwup, it's neocron after all, but it sure is a lot more fun than ppu's being nigh invincible because of the uselessness of antibuffs (only if 3 ppus are antibuffing one ppu does it have any chance of being succesful)

[gamefreak]

Biglines asumes a "good" PPU is one that clips so much that it's indeed really hard to kill him. But not all clans/PPUs use this tactic, since they consider it an exploit or at least "lame" too.
If a PPU doesn't clip excessively, a good team with normal anti buff is always enough to kill him.

Alas i know the people who are using it now won't stop using it or seeing it as the "shitty tactic" it is, since they've stubbornly held onto clipping as a "legit pvp skill".

[Biglines]

Biglines asumes a "good" PPU is one that clips so much that it's indeed really hard to kill him. But not all clans/PPUs use this tactic, since they consider it an exploit or at least "lame" too.
If a PPU doesn't clip excessively, a good team with normal anti buff is always enough to kill him.

Alas i know the people who are using it now won't stop using it or seeing it as the "shitty tactic" it is, since they've stubbornly held onto clipping as a "legit pvp skill".

lol, good to see you are capable of reading my mind, and know exactly what I'm assuming...

next time, just don't

I think ppu's that are good are the ones that can break focus, not the ones that clip, hell, lots of outposts don't even allow much clipping, except maybe around the UG. normal antibuff is not enough, the moment u get antibuffed, u put up blue again instantly (since u can easily time antibuff), or white/red depending on what the damagedealers are using (and yes, most proper clans synchronize damage colour so their ppu's can overcast or antibuff that specific damage type). An antibuffed ppu is vulnerable for about half a second. Hell, I take far more damage from an antiheal than an antibuff...

I hate how all this seems to come down to e-peen talk... I'm not even close to the really good ppu's on terra these days, but I rarely clip on my ppu (unless I'm the last alive or fighting sandwiches), but I know for a fact that when I go down, I go down to anti-heal and overcast, not to antibuff. antibuff is simply too easy to counter (unless of course you have 3 ppus antibuffing u, but anything goes down to 3 ppus antibuffing)

[JAP]

John Doe has written this in the english Forum as the Balancing Discussion about PPUS/APUS started...
http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.ph...5&postcount=38

...and in the German Forum this:

http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.ph...8&postcount=42

I think that there is a mistake in the translation. According to the english text i would say that shitbuffs were allowed because they say that it is possible to cast a bigger shield on a runner. So they know that it works. And if this becomes a problem they would fix it.

In the german forum he wrote: Sollte wirklich ein neues ShitBuff-Problem entstehen, weil ein besseres Shield über ein bestehendes, selbstgecastetes angewendet wird, um den Selfcast-Bonus auszuhebeln, werden wir das umgehend beheben.
I think the better Translation for that is:
If a new Shitbuff-Problem should exist because a better shield is applied over an existing selfcast shield, to overturn the Selfcast-Bonus, we will look into it to resolve this problem.

This text can be interpreted in different ways.

Thanatos wrote this in the diskussion for the PSI categorie:

Concerning the functionality of shields (and heals): A better shield replaces a weaker one – this ensures that runners can not be put at a disadvantage by weaker support (by their opponents, „Shitbuffing“).

So the originial idea was to prevent the shitbuffing. But somehow the statements are contradictory.

[Biglines]

but wasnt the problem with shitbuffing that you were stuck with the shitty buff till it ran out? overcast can simply be countered by another selfcast

[JAP]

I think we need a statement from a dev who say if it is allowed to overcast shields or not. That's the best way to clear this.

[flib]

This is clearly not an intended part of the system. If anything, this needs to be fixed, and the rest of the system needs some overhauling. Using this as a makeshift solution is just broken.

[Biglines]

how is this "clearly" not intended? the devs say that they know this was the result, they patched it that way, and only if it was a problem they would see about fixing it.. it not even close to a problem, hell, it's an added way of playing, another strategy, that is neither overpowered nor unwelcome, just another dimension to varied play... if you want something fixed, fix the netcode so people can't clip so badly anymore, add a proper network encryption, add proper anticheat, and make pe's, hybrids and melee more viable (and adding methods to make viable setups with other guns)

[gamefreak]

how is this "clearly" not intended? the devs say that they know this was the result, they patched it that way, and only if it was a problem they would see about fixing it.. it not even close to a problem, hell, it's an added way of playing, another strategy, that is neither overpowered nor unwelcome, just another dimension to varied play... if you want something fixed, fix the netcode so people can't clip so badly anymore, add a proper network encryption, add proper anticheat, and make pe's, hybrids and melee more viable (and adding methods to make viable setups with other guns)

[Genji]

Biglines asumes a "good" PPU is one that clips so much that it's indeed really hard to kill him. But not all clans/PPUs use this tactic, since they consider it an exploit or at least "lame" too.

You have PLAYED neocron right? Even the people that say they don't clip do infact clip, due partly to the fact that I can scratch my balls and will be cliping my hand through my leg and partly because moving at all around or near any object causes you to clip wether you realize it or not. The only way to not clip in this game is to only ever walk in a straight line...wait no, then you'll be cliping through the ground whenever a pebble in your path...and you certainly can't go anywhere near the hackterm if you don't want to be a 'lame sploiter noob'. I can't count the number of times I've seen people whine about cliping wile in the process of doing it themselves that very moment.

SO.. for everyones benefit, lets just not bring it up again. mmmkay

and a bit more on topic, anti-buffing isn't effective against even a 'decent' ppu outside of a rez unless you have atleast 2 ppu's doing it in conjuntion. Even then you need a good number of fighters with decent aim. There are ofcourse the bad ppu's, we know who they are, that get taken out usally at the start of an op fight because there just so horribly braindead. lol like one of the ppu's from that tg clan last year, if nobody was attacking him he wouldn't even notice being anti-buffed. "hey guys, just real quick shoot this moron that doesn't rebuff himself...ok good job, back to whoever you were killing."

and really, if the ppu is the target of all the fighters he's going to be recasting his shields very often anyway and unless you have 2 or 3 ppu's droping an anti with a couple seconds of eachother..you really have little to no chance of getting a kill. I, for example, am NOT an uber ppu but 1 ppu randomly droping anti's on me is going to have a zero chance of seeing me die...unless I'm alone and I get bored of saying "lol noobs l2aim" and just give up before they do. I wrecked all my armor one time at tyron, they gave up trying to kill me after an hour cause they only had 1 ppu to anti/shitbuff. though granted tyron is a horrible op for random ground clippage. aahhhh..good times.

[Biglines]

[IMGhttp://www.withoutatraceroute.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/facepalm.jpg/IMG]

so, when you can't actually make sense verbally, u bring up troll pics, yay