Balancing Project Progress

[Dribble Joy]

HC users lose sleep because of the run nerf, so although we have the points to spec agility without drugs (as it should be) We are still slow!

I disagree, as I've said allready .

edit:
As I've said allready, I have nothing against removing the RC/HC runspeed reduction. As I see it, it has little real effect on PvP, so whether it's in or out is more or less irrelevant. The question then is whether you want to alliviate a placebo or maintain some form or realism (balance comes before realism, but where balance would be unaffected, realism should be upheld).

With a weapon out, Just because some stupid PE's want to use a slasher which by all rights they shouldn't beable to do, and hopefully wont, the reason behind that is that, a spy should have weaker resist than a PE, but more powerful weapon. and a PE should have a less powerful weapon but better resists. PE's should be going around with cap of 105 weapons maybe, while spy should get up to 115 or higher if the push the bar. if a PE can get better resists/health and the same weapon as a spy then by all rights a spy is useless. If PE's didn't spec for tl 115 slashers etc, they should need less TC and PC meaning that they can spec more agil, and need less drugs. You may have noticed that PE's are the only ones who can actually get into level 4 pa with any good reason, and HC tanks very rarely have pa since people complain about the athletic nerf

Yes.... like roger said, and the rest of my post you didn't quote laid out, the NC2 skill system (and to an extent some of the items) is to blame. A return to something similar to the NC1 system would fix a lot of the balance issues with PEs and spies.

PE is the jack of all trade...

Common misperception. The PE is not a Joat.
If he were, then he could persue all skill paths to a reasonable level at the same time.
But he cannot, he simply has the potential to go down more paths than the other classes, far from being a JoaT, PEs actually have to specialise far more than the other classes (which I have no problem with and in fact uphold). He still has to choose a single path. The fact that he draws upon all of the different aspects to achieve viability is not to be confused with JoaTage.

[RogerRamjet]

30 points in TC (most people probably have more) means 6 more PC or RC, which does make a difference.

As for HC/MC weapons, yes the TC factor is minimal. Either those weapon classes should not get a benefit for high tech, or something like agl could be made more important to them.

As to gig's initial question; This is what I was reffering to when I rubbed my hands with glee at the fact we will be getting a skill discussion.
Personally, the solution would be something of a return to NC1 skill effects, though with a slight alteration.

In NC1 the skill effects on weapons was more or less open ended. It was very hard to cap a weapon (freq in the case of pistols, rifles, cannons and maybe melee).
This meant that a hightech user, with low tech resists and a cirtain combat skilling would get pretty much the same dmg/time as a low tech user with the same skilling.

For example, you could just about cap a libby with moveon/ppr, about 174 pc afaik (wep didn't affect freq)), with the same pc, you got 160 rpm on a judge (cap is 185). This meant you were reasonably equal and all was good. A judge user could pop his ppr or moveon for a target 3, more offence, less defence and again things would be good.

The problem now is that with equal or even less skilling as before you can cap a judge, so that the low tl weapons were essentially pushed out of viability and 'had' to use DB. With wep affecting freq it became easier to get high stats on high level weapons. So with setups that would resemble and old 'middle' judge setup, you would get near-capped or capped stats on weapons 13 tls higher.

What I would propose is - as said - a reversal to something akin to the NC1 system.
Due to 'realism' and game mechanics issues, I'd make the dmg stat open ended instead of freq. Remove the wep affect on dmg, so it's purely the PC/RC/HC/MC/APU value that affects the real dmg/time (freq would be easy to cap, as though there's nothing wrong in having freq vaguely open ended, it's messy). Then, either remove the dmg cap entirely or (if not possible) move it completely out of reach.
Your offencive power would then be directly influenced by the setup and the direction you want to take you char.

Thus a judge, libby and slasher PE/spy with the same PC would have equal offencive powers (though clearly to reach the dex required, more offencive imps would have to be taken, meaning that having to the same skilling would be detrimental, just making a point).
You would then get a massive range of setups, not just one or two per weapon, that would be equal to one another.

Hope that made vague sense.

Re: PA.
Make PA akin to an offencive type implant. Lower defence bonus than the middle armours (viper, titan) but with offence boosts. Then you could also have defence imp type PAs, with offence malii and higher defence benefits.

Sorry i didnt see this post earlier, but I agree with all the points raised.

[Dribble Joy]

Doesn't just apply to PEs/Spies and/or dex weapons, but to all classes and weapon systems.

[LiL T]

HC users lose sleep because of the run nerf, so although we have the points to spec agility without drugs (as it should be) We are still slow! With a weapon out, Just because some stupid PE's want to use a slasher which by all rights they shouldn't beable to do, and hopefully wont, the reason behind that is that, a spy should have weaker resist than a PE, but more powerful weapon. and a PE should have a less powerful weapon but better resists. PE's should be going around with cap of 105 weapons maybe, while spy should get up to 115 or higher if the push the bar. if a PE can get better resists/health and the same weapon as a spy then by all rights a spy is useless. If PE's didn't spec for tl 115 slashers etc, they should need less TC and PC meaning that they can spec more agil, and need less drugs. You may have noticed that PE's are the only ones who can actually get into level 4 pa with any good reason, and HC tanks very rarely have pa since people complain about the athletic nerf

Humm I donno somedays I'm all for the run speed nerf and other days I'm thinking tanks are really gimped and slow. But then I imagine how it would be if they was as fast as a pistol user with weapon out, sure they would still be easy to hit. But its question of what could a player who normaly plays a pistol PE do with a CS without the runspeed nerf, tare anyone to bits because its one of the most powerfull weapons in the game.

/edit with PPU butt plugs and parra no... otherwise yes as a solo fighter and not some wonder boy with god mode ppu buffs on running around with a fucking dev just as fast a pistol or melee user. Though I'm all for tanks getting some extra speed, maybe just as fast a rifle user, their fairly slow from my experence but not as slow as H-C tank which is painfully slow atm

[LiL T]

30 points in TC (most people probably have more) means 6 more PC or RC, which does make a difference.

As for HC/MC weapons, yes the TC factor is minimal. Either those weapon classes should not get a benefit for high tech, or something like agl could be made more important to them.

As to gig's initial question; This is what I was reffering to when I rubbed my hands with glee at the fact we will be getting a skill discussion.
Personally, the solution would be something of a return to NC1 skill effects, though with a slight alteration.

In NC1 the skill effects on weapons was more or less open ended. It was very hard to cap a weapon (freq in the case of pistols, rifles, cannons and maybe melee).
This meant that a hightech user, with low tech resists and a cirtain combat skilling would get pretty much the same dmg/time as a low tech user with the same skilling.

For example, you could just about cap a libby with moveon/ppr, about 174 pc afaik (wep didn't affect freq)), with the same pc, you got 160 rpm on a judge (cap is 185). This meant you were reasonably equal and all was good. A judge user could pop his ppr or moveon for a target 3, more offence, less defence and again things would be good.

The problem now is that with equal or even less skilling as before you can cap a judge, so that the low tl weapons were essentially pushed out of viability and 'had' to use DB. With wep affecting freq it became easier to get high stats on high level weapons. So with setups that would resemble and old 'middle' judge setup, you would get near-capped or capped stats on weapons 13 tls higher.

What I would propose is - as said - a reversal to something akin to the NC1 system.
Due to 'realism' and game mechanics issues, I'd make the dmg stat open ended instead of freq. Remove the wep affect on dmg, so it's purely the PC/RC/HC/MC/APU value that affects the real dmg/time (freq would be easy to cap, as though there's nothing wrong in having freq vaguely open ended, it's messy). Then, either remove the dmg cap entirely or (if not possible) move it completely out of reach.
Your offencive power would then be directly influenced by the setup and the direction you want to take you char.

Thus a judge, libby and slasher PE/spy with the same PC would have equal offencive powers (though clearly to reach the dex required, more offencive imps would have to be taken, meaning that having to the same skilling would be detrimental, just making a point).
You would then get a massive range of setups, not just one or two per weapon, that would be equal to one another.

Hope that made vague sense.

Re: PA.
Make PA akin to an offencive type implant. Lower defence bonus than the middle armours (viper, titan) but with offence boosts. Then you could also have defence imp type PAs, with offence malii and higher defence benefits.

I agree with going back to NC1 skill system, the slasher and exe on a PE is a bit extreme with the old damage boost, infact i think PE's are more suited to a capped judge without the damage boost and I'm worryed really worryed about something i heard about PE's being able to debuff people with nanos or some shit. ER NOTHX we already had that problem with the fucking spirt modded shit and SPYS/PES being overpowered with it, longer fights are more fun in this game.

I still think a PE should be able to cap a judge without gimping but he should need an SA at least in order to cap it and a good built one too

/edit as for the xbow well, you have to earn it and oh it needs a slightly smaller clip size and damage boost is a problem as much as para is when used with that thing.

[Dribble Joy]

I still think a PE should be able to cap a judge without gimping but he should need an SA at least in order to cap it and a good built one too

The problem then is what about people using lowtech/lower tl weapons?
To me, caps are more or less a barrier to variation and as we can see at the moment, balance. For the sake of simplicity though it would be easier to keep a single stat open ended (and dmg is the easiest one to do that with).
Even with a kami you shouldn't cap anything, then at least you gain the full advantage of it's benefits.

Remember that in the probable range of (dex based) weapons, the judge will be one of the top weapons they can use (assuming it remains at tl 100).

Back to my original reason for this post though.
Are there plans to sort the mob situation?
Some of them are far to easy, especially fire mobs. I'm scared of taking on 3 WBTs solo, yet I'm perfectly happy to tackle a percy and a chaser together.

[Torq]

-We have set the launch of the public test server to mid-October.
-We will use the PvP-Server Neptun as test server.
-We are also planning a character transfer for the test server phase. It will allow you to copy your existing Runners to Neptun. Furthermore, we have planned comfortable solutions to allow you to easily reset your skill points and to give you access to items (weapons, armor, implants, etc.).

The best three news I have heard in a long time.

[giga191]

We have set the launch of the public test server to mid-October. .

omfg....i just released that you gave us an actual time for something to happen. i haven't seen KK do that in several years

[carecare]

I don't think pes will have the ability to use slasher and exec anymore post ballancing, which is good.
And with the weaponslineup changes the xbow will be nerfed to the level of a judge with the woc bonus, yet with shitty stats, so still needing slasher exec speccing to cap.

As for db: A hightech pistoler or rifler pe casts his db way slower than a lowtech one.

but let's just see what the testserver brings, as we're all concentrating on a few classes here, where in fact ALL classes get changed. So basicaly we know nothing at all and it's all mere speculation.

[Dribble Joy]

I don't think pes will have the ability to use slasher and exec anymore post ballancing, which is good.

Technically, assuming the skill system is fixed it doesn't really matter if they can or not. Not being able to use weapons above about tl 105 is more to do with class distinction.

And with the weaponslineup changes the xbow will be nerfed to the level of a judge with the woc bonus, yet with shitty stats, so still needing slasher exec speccing to cap.

Depends what tl it is, whether they bring in mods for it and stuff.

As for db: A hightech pistoler or rifler pe casts his db way slower than a lowtech one.

Not really, a high tech PE can easily get over 100 psu. DJ would have 130 if she didn't poke.

but let's just see what the testserver brings, as we're all concentrating on a few classes here, where in fact ALL classes get changed. So basicaly we know nothing at all and it's all mere speculation.

Exactly .

omfg....i just released that you gave us an actual time for something to happen. i haven't seen KK do that in several years

I know... doesn't fill one with complete confidence does it .

[Pantho]

123 Wep lore

130 PSI use -

-

Lowtech tend to have

80 wep lore

110 hck

130 psi use

[Dribble Joy]

Don't need that much wep for lowtech, I cap the judge with 53. Though I use PA and have 172 PC so that I can get semi decent psu and poke 115.

[Safunte]

I'd appreciate weekly or bi-weekly progress updates. This is borderline going on too long, or just too slowly.

[Jagrfelm]

There is a Progress?

[Safunte]

*wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge*

its a damn good hint when people start SUGGESTING the idea of periodic updates, you know... something scheduled almost so they can KNOW somehting is ACTUALLY HAPPENING and we're not just burning time for you in this silly forum that you pick seldom few ideas out of.