The Monk

[Kame]

just read the updates on the monks on the other thread.

heres an idea i had in the past:

New Skill Resist PSI
The PSI RESIST would work as the skill that tells how much foreign PPU buffs have effect on you.
The more you have, the closer you get from having the full bonus a foreign ppu buff can give, with a cap of course.
The PPU would also have to reach a certain cap of PSI resist.
If they dont cap PSI resist then the foreign effect of theyre buffs is reduced, again with a cap.

I think we do not need a new PSI SKILL(like exotic psi) because we already have psi resist.
This idea could work great, given a little tought, and a few new rules like :

-Do not make stonger PPU buffs override lower ones.
-Make it so foreign PPU buffs affects only players in TEAM.
-The PSI resist value could take cap at 75 BASE SKILL POINTS.
-Make the cap of foreign PPU at 66% of what is the selfcast strenght.
(heal, sd and etc.)
-Possibly move some spells to the APU side, they already make no sense being PPU modules.(Damage boost, parashock)
This would trigger lot more changes especially for PEs and PPU.
The PE would lose something that some ppl think makes them overpowered (DB + highest TL DEX weapons or crossbow)
As for the PPU, he wouldnt be calling the shots anymore with the PARA.(in pvp)It would be the APU by either HAB or PARA.
You could also choose to be a PE that PARA/DBs. Sacrificing vital PPU skills into APU. (again, defense vs offense in PE setups)

APU
This would obviously push PPUd APUs to spec less mana pools and cap less theyre spells.
Also would make the MOVEON APU monk setup kinda pointless.
Now if you plan on being a solo APU you could spec no resist PSI and therefore cap ur spells better, possibly put a MOVEON chip in.

PPU
The PPU would need to cap his own PSI RESIST to be able to deliver full strenght foreign buffs.
Most team oriented PPUs would not benefit anymore from puting MOVEON in as he would need every little bits of points to try to reach the highest cap both for the spell and the PSI RESIST.
Less godlike PPUs = more fun
Also the para/db only PPU in OP fight wouldnt be there anymore.

Overall changes to MONK
-Would make both APU and PPU spells less effective as specing 75 base points somewhere else would make even capped psi (skill) monks not capping everyspells as easily as right now.
-Would make teamwork skill a more important factor in APU/PPU teamplay.
-The PPU isnt calling the shots anymore, and no way for him to fully support any type of fighter at any moment to make him godlike : you would have to be specificaly setup for PPUage.



TANK
The tank could never cap PSI RESIST.
He could either spec to use a heal and basic buffs (like right now) or spec 50 PSI RESIST and get, say : 33% value of selfcast PPU spells.
A way so a tank could never get full bonus from any ppu buff, giving him a better advantage when fighting solo.

PE
PE would gain little to know changes from that TEAM-WISE, because the real advantage of being a PE is PPUing yourself.
PEs could reach the PSI RESIST cap but would get the less advantage from it.

SPY
With his 20 PSI lvs, the spy could reach the PSI RESIST cap, and get the maximum from foreign buffs (66%).
Then they would also loose the ability to use selfbuff if they choose to go the PPU way.

PvP and PvM and overall balance
All those changes effect PVP the most.
You would really need to have a very tight teamwork in an APU/PPU team to be really viable over being 2 Fighters.
I think that 2 skilled fighters fighting 2 euqlly skilled APU/PPU monk team should have the same chances in a 2 vs 2 fight.
In fact i think the 2 fighters, if more skilled should win, as they deliver more damage in less time.
If the 2 fighters are less skilled obviously they should lose to a more skilled APU/PPU monk team.
Also less powerfull PPU spells (less capped, not capped until PSI skill as reached 100 lvs anyways) would make the 2 fighters vs 1fighter+1PPU dynamic change.
Less powerfull APU spells(less capped, again not truly capped until the PSI skill has reached 100 lvs) would also change the 2 fighters vs 1 fighter+1PPU
dynamic change.
You could still PvM as easily as right now given everyone in team as a decent amount of PSI RESIST speced.
The major downside is that would would get little to no bonus for going as a solo fighter in a team.
You would need to completely change the PSI setup in order to go from being solo to PPUd ( or opposite)

[Dogface]

you are joking about giving APUs damage boost and para right..? That's got to be the most ridiculous idea I've heard on this monk thread...

[onero S]

I don't agree with giving apus para, I dont' think he suggested db, but other than that, I like the idea in concept, these are the kinds of changes I think we need, ie affecting how ppus and apus relate to each other without affecting a solo-ability

[Kame]

refer to lower post

[Dogface]

-Possibly move some spells to the APU side, they already make no sense being PPU modules.(Damage boost, parashock)
The PE would lose something that some ppl think makes them overpowered (DB + highest TL DEX weapons or crossbow)

You think Xbow and damage boost is overpowered compared to DB and Holy Lightning?!

I could see how a fight would go.

Para. Debuff. DB. HLSpam. Kill.

Perhaps miss out the debuff if it wasn't a PPU. Maybe if it was a PE just to shit him up a bit. Although it would probably remove 100% psi power to cast these.

Still, APUs should certainly not get DB and para.

If exotic psi use was implemented, they should get spells such as para, db, debuff (remove from APUs), anti-everything (poison, DB, para etc.) and make spells like *Distract Mind, *Provoke Enemy and *PSI Shield work (I heard they don't work, havent tested.)

* - These spells should be given to PPUs aswell.

[edit]

I do like the resist PSI Idea Kame, but it doesn't really match the name of the spell. This would gimp players who want to play with a PPU when they aren't with a PPU, but would give them a larger benefit when they did play them.
This would be shweet for PvE too.

But, I'm still uncertain of what would happen if something like this was implemented. There's something iffy about it..

Of course if it actually did resist PSI damage, I don't know where it would go for spies because they would be seriously gimped if PSI was removed, since it would probably go in con which would ruin all other resists, unless it had a lower cap. Would effect tanks quite a bit too I think, for the same reasons.

As long as it could resist some HL damage, I'm all for having the opportunity to use it.

[onero S]

You think Xbow and damage boost is overpowered compared to DB and Holy Lightning?!

I could see how a fight would go.

Para. Debuff. DB. HLSpam. Kill.

Perhaps miss out the debuff if it wasn't a PPU. Maybe if it was a PE just to shit him up a bit. Although it would probably remove 100% psi power to cast these.

Still, APUs should certainly not get DB and para.

If exotic psi use was implemented, they should get spells such as para, db, debuff (remove from APUs), anti-everything (poison, DB, para etc.) and make spells like *Distract Mind, *Provoke Enemy and *PSI Shield work (I heard they don't work, havent tested.)

* - These spells should be given to PPUs aswell.

[edit]

I do like the resist PSI Idea Kame, but it doesn't really match the name of the spell. This would gimp players who want to play with a PPU when they aren't with a PPU, but would give them a larger benefit when they did play them.
This would be shweet for PvE too.

But, I'm still uncertain of what would happen if something like this was implemented. There's something iffy about it..

Of course if it actually did resist PSI damage, I don't know where it would go for spies because they would be seriously gimped if PSI was removed, since it would probably go in con which would ruin all other resists, unless it had a lower cap. Would effect tanks quite a bit too I think, for the same reasons.

As long as it could resist some HL damage, I'm all for having the opportunity to use it.

I like the idea as well, but you couldn't make psi resist a normal resist, hl does the dmg it does with pretty much capt energy resist, if you made part of the dmg psi dmg and put in psi resist, hl could only do more dmg.

[Kame]

Well the mana pool would help balance the para/hab/db HL - kill.

You know a normal hab takes 260 mana, and the most mana u can have is around 415.
And APU with resist PSI could not in any way do a HAB, then a PARA, then come even close to killing anyone.

Maybe a solo APU with psi attack 2, 3 , psicore and DS could do something like PARA + HL spam, or DB or something but still, that type of APU (with no resist PSI even, so big pool and good spell cap) would be very limited by the CON / damage taking factor.

They COULD PARA, save mana then HAB, then save more and DB, then save more and HL...
But tbh unless they fight someone that doesnt know how to aim at all, by the time the HAB is done the APU is well... dead.

Any APU with the cap resist PSI skill (75 base) should have a mana pool in the 300, and that is with only psi implants and he might not even cap the HL...

Yes i would overpower a bit solo APUs but solo APUs would be nowhere near totally overpowered, since a PE or spy could take em out with 3 - 4 shots.

On that note tho maybe DB should cost incrdibly more mana, a bit like para and hab.
I think these 3 spells should require 260 mana per cast.
As we all already seen solo PPU getting out the UG to DB everyone prior to his clan coming out of that UG.
This idea would totally KILL being a random PPU in OP war.
EDIT
also right now a ppu can pick up on ANY fighting char and enhance him to death by giving him prims, sd and then para/db his enemies.
The resist psi would make it totally useless to even heal or SD a fighter speced to go solo.
He(the ppu) couldnt even para or DB the target.
Then again skill would prevail over who has more PPUs.

Anyways as ive said lots of times before, parashock and damage boost are nowhere near being passive psi modules

I also think i would love to see APUs with moveon + ppr using holy energy beam (non rare hl) and flame avalanche and concentrating on thiting HAB,PARAs and DB.that would put them more in line with other fighters.
in the end, changes like this would bring those types of apu/ppu teams to appear.
It would actually make the PPUs being targeted first.
Playing apu/ppu would become incredibly hard and that would be for the best.
Maybe ppus would start using blessed stuff to fully cap them and then use moveon+ppr

EDIT

oh and i no way would it give any resist to ANYTHING.
The only incidence it would have would be in-team foreign cast PPU modules.

I simply called it resist PSI because we have the value in our F5 ; its already there, and its exactly where it should be.

[Dribble Joy]

Discussion Update: Monk

Ideas to rebalance the Monk:

- Introduce a new skill under PSI (Exotic PSI), and use it as requirement for the aggressive PPU spells like damage boost, parashock and possibly also buffs

- Additional suggestion to split monks into APU/PPU/EPU
• PPU: pure healer, excellent self heal and good group heal
• EPU: support monk, has the strongest buffs, damage boost, anti spells and a weak group heal
• APU: pure damage dealer, excellent offensive abilities

Interesting....

- Turn the hybrid into a debuffer, add high APU and PPU requirements to anti spells

Interesting.


General ideas concerning the rebalancing:

- Reduce the effectiveness of the PPU’s spells on others and reduce the APU damage

Yup.

- Add a concentration penalty that will appear from chain casting or when casting under fire

- Make the damage output and cast failure chance dependant on whether the character runs, walks or stands still. Strongest damage while standing, weakest while running. In relation to the suggestion above, concentration would be higher while standing

Don't think this is necessary, not a mlus of the other classes and shouldn't really be one just for the apu.

- Weaken damage boost in general

Depends, if the PPU boost to other classes is too high, reduce it, otherwsie, no need.

- Make it possible to cast over Shelter/Deflector/Heal but only if the new spell is a better version

Superior and self cast overide other spells of the same type.

- Make Psi resist work on all damage types done by Psi modules

Oh sweet baby jesus no.

[/quote]- Improve the group spells somewhat and make the sanctums work only on the team. In return, weaken the effect of single-modules so that you need both types to get optimal support. This may reduce the need for 1:1 support and gives the PPU more ways to support his team.[/quote]
It will either make PPUs less necessary, or make then even more so.

[Galileo]

- Add a concentration penalty that will appear from chain casting or when casting under fire

- Make the damage output and cast failure chance dependant on whether the character runs, walks or stands still. Strongest damage while standing, weakest while running. In relation to the suggestion above, concentration would be higher while standing

Or a cooldown period? Relative to the TL and/or AoE/Direct (quicker for direct). HL 15 second cooldown for e.g.

Cooldown speed increases if standing versus running?

You're definitely on the right track though IMO

Edit - Cooldown would also mean PPU's not nerfed too much on Primes/Buffs as they last a long(ish) time. Also, we already know that the code exists for Foreign Cast only (PSI3) - More spells that are foreign only or self cast only (HH Self cast only!!!) pls

[-FN-]

In response to this "APUs are overpowered" argument, APUs are fragile - the real unbalance is the combination of three things:

1) PSI Armor - Problem & Suggested Solution
I agree that PSI based armor is an entire issue of unbalancing itself. Across the board, all Helmets, Pants, and Boots should be STR based, belts being INT based is silly (DURRR IM TO DUM TO BUKLE DIS TING!), I think DEX based-would be more fitting. PEs & Tanks would get medium belts to compliment their high-end armor. Spies would have one high-end armor item to work their CON around. And Monks would get a light belt to compliment however they setup their CON + Shelter. Vests could stay as a tailored-to-class item, but some vests need serious nerfing *cough* Spy PA *cough*

But at the same time, no APU can have the resists PLUS health of a tank. The Hybrids in-game that use Shelter, plus the PSI armor cause more of an unbalance than pure APUs. But PSI Armor alone isn't a game-breaking issue. It's already been somewhat relieved by the Heal changes.

If PSI Armor gets scrapped, I'm hoping that their skills also get a tweak.:

INT 100 -> 90
DEX 35  -> 35
STR 20  -> 35
CON 45  -> 40
PSI 100 -> 100

Because some Battle Armor should be accessible by Monks and with Belts no longer being INT based, 100 INT isn't required anymore. Besides, does anyone really cap Monk INT anyway? Yes, these changes would make a Lone APU incredibly frail... but GLASS CANNON, come on I think it's supposed to be that way.

2) Run Speed Caps - Problem & Suggested Solution
In a foot race, each class, at max speed should finish in different places, but at the moment, they all are the same speed. APUs shouldn't be so fast they can stop a spy from targetting them. Half of what makes an APU deadly is the inability to hit him. APUs run circles around poor tanks with their gun drawn and compete neck-to-neck with Spies and PEs, showing the higher DEX really means nothing in speed.

Change the run-speed formula be harder to cap and more like:

Max Runspeed = 50% DEX + 30% AGL + 20% ATH
Run/Turning Speed with Weapon Drawn = ( 25% DEX + 25% AGL + 25% STR + 25% ATH ) / Weapon WEIGHT

Thus creating DEX as the governing skill for overall runspeed with the ability for Tanks and PEs to spec a little extra, and then compensating the slow-turn speed for Tanks with the new weapon-drawn speed calculation.

Then in a foot-race, a maxed out Spy would win, PE & Tank probably tied for second, and the frail, lacking in CON & DEX, Monk would be last. However, a Spy/Melee boost should theoretically be able to get them near a PE's speed.

Weapon TL & Quality, Armor TL & Quality, CON Setups, and Speed should be the major factors in Game-Controlled PvP (Not counting a person's ability in twitch-combat), but currently Speed is not isolated as a factor, the others are tho.

3) LoS + Net Code Lag - Problem & Suggested Solution
The LoS/Net Code thing is the 'extra' hits APUs get on players who technically shouldn't be hit anymore (stealthers, people who have run around a corner). It's just a lag between the clients and I'm not sure this can ever be fixed so I don't have a suggestion on this one

[giga191]

Psi resist - I don't like having to gimp a chars defence to defend against a single char type.

EPU - No way. I'm not a big monk fan, but talk about trying to make a class useless. Monks should have a large range of spells to use, perhaps even larger than it is atm, WE NEED TACTICS !!!!!

[Dribble Joy]

Turning speed should never be subject to malus, aside from the fact it will be near impossible to stop people working round it, it just starts us down the same problems of para.
Besides, think of the poor n00bs who end up turning slower than a battle ship.

Speed is not isolated as a factor

No it is not, and as it should remain.
You should know (though maybe you don't), that runspeed and movement is utterly irrelevant to PvP balance.

As for monk armour, remember that all the armour is being reworked and that there's a distinct possiblity if (IF!!) monk armour is scrapped that the armours within the monk's str range will be sufficient when coupled with belts and PA.

[giga191]

EPU - No way. I'm not a big monk fan, but talk about trying to make a class useless. Monks should have a large range of spells to use, perhaps even larger than it is atm, WE NEED TACTICS !!!!!

Yay for quoting myself, I'd just like to say that EPU could work if there were loads of new spell types made instead of just sharing the existing ones

[-FN-]

You should know (though maybe you don't), that runspeed and movement is utterly irrelevant to PvP balance.

...

Going back to any console game (non-side scrolling... the only side-scroller I can think of with variable character speeds was Super Mario Bros 2 and that's not even PvP ) like Mortal Kombat or Soul Caliber, a character's speed was a variable that hinged on the characters Offensive and Defensive capabilities. If you're a huge lumbering character with a huge weapon that does high damage, you move slower. If you're a small, wily character with a small weapon, you generally do smaller damage but have the availability to move faster. Heck, watch the fight scene between Marv and Kevin in Sin City - and you'll see what *should* be the classic "Tank vs Spy" showdown.

Every decently balanced PvP game I've ever played factors speed and movement in as an integral part:

CS: If you could run and move the same speed in CS with and AWP as fast as you can with an M4-A1, you're telling me that would be irrelevent?

Planetside: Heavier Armor, Heavy Weapons, slower movement and run speed. Stealth Armor and a pistol, fast movement and run speed - just don't get hit or you're screwed.

Diablo II: Barbarians could spec for speed. It was the only thing that kept them from auto-dying to an Amazon two screens away.

Neocron: Even in Neofrag, if a substantially slower Spy vs a substantially faster spy, the slower spy will have a hard time winning - I've seen and been in it a million times. The differentiation *does* exist in Neocron, just not nearly enough class-based, hence the new DEX-derived foruma.

[giga191]

Marv and Kevin in Sin City - and you'll see what *should* be the classic "Tank vs Spy" showdown.

Except that the spy got his ass kicked ^^ (and he ends up with no arms and legs too)