1. #1
    Registered User Celt's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 2003
    Location
    Hibernia
    Posts
    1,151

    Default Removing the LE maluses - making NC a little friendlier to returning players

    A returning player came on the NC Discord earlier, asked a question about turning off an animation and then when he noticed that there was an xp/cash malus on the LE, said nevermind and that he wasn't going to bother continuing playing. I have no doubt there have been many more like him who haven't been vocal about it, and I know both the LE malus and removal of city safezones have stopped me doing much more than logging on to look at chat and then nope out of there.

    Had a discussion with Xanthos and others, and here are my thoughts:


    What's the gameplay purpose of the LE?



    To allow players to experience the game without being forced to engage in PVP.


    Why do we want this to be an option?


    Levels/Damage scale to such an extent that lower/mid level characters even in groups don't have a hope against capped characters

    A player being killed can set them back a significant amount of time

    A player who's belt/backpack are being camped is set back even further in terms of time (or overall loss)


    Some players simply don't want to PVP but do want to experience the world, levelling up, tradeskilling and acquiring new items


    What are the benefits to the LE?


    No risk from player combat or having belts hacked


    What are the drawbacks to the LE?


    Not able to join clans
    Not able to PVP
    Lose one brain implant slot
    Reduced XP gain over **/30
    Reduced cash gain over 30/**


    How has the role of the LE changed since NC1?


    LE's were very rare on the two servers I played on in NC1, especially at higher levels. Prime levelling spots were generally self-policing to some extent a ganker at the MB bunker would draw out players to hunt him down, same anywhere in the city where a low level character simply needed to say on chat that they were low level pk'ed. Camping belts/backpacks was basically unheard of, and being found hacking dropped belts of noobs or strangers would see people blacklisted. There was a risk in ganking noobs/levellers (even in places like CRP or the chaos caves) and potentially severe consequences. None such appear to exist now.


    How have players and expectations changed since NC1?


    Returning players are at least 17-18 years older. They have full time jobs, many have kids and relationships. The vast majority of people simply do not have the time or patience for an incredibly raw HARDCORE PVP levelling experience. We've had almost 2 decades of games becoming more accessable and more conducive to short bursts of playtime. That doesn't mean the core mechanics of NC need to change but then again, for almost the entirety of NC1 and during it's heyday, it had LE's that had no reduced xp/cash malus.

    Just a general point. It's better to have 50 people online than 25, even if 25 of those 50 have LEs. They can be convinced to get rid of the LEs at higher levels to join clans. To PVP. To make hunting that bit easier with an extra implant. Players who either a) never return when they see the LE malus or b) quit after getting ganked can't be convinced of anything - even if it changes in the future, they're never coming back.

    In aid of that, you could add gentler drawbacks to the LE. Things like not allowing them to enter high level MC5 or to engage in WoC. But having xp/cash maluses on LEs sends a negative message to people whose time is precious or players who simply don't want to PVP.

    I was a hardcore op-warrer in NC1, I rarely PVEd and I didn't tradeskill beyond a mid level barterer. I was in a minority, the vast majority of other players wanted to level, hunt, tradeskill and simply take part in the community with any sort of PVP coming a distant second.

    To pretend that NC1 was primarily a PVP game is ahistorical and untrue, it welcomed all sorts of players and catered to them to some extent.
    Can the same be said about the current version of NC?


    Quote Originally Posted by Oath
    I'll fear when i find your naked Droner Body and violate it

  2. #2

    Default

    Removing the XP and Cash malus would be nice on LE, cause there is no need for except then annoying people leveling. But in my opinion the LE needs a overall rework with that change.
    At least in all high level areas the LE should just not work. Whats the reason of LE people farming MC5, thats the place their LE got put in? How can a implant save you from damage of other players when you are in a cave? Cant people shoot you cause they can see inside your head and take a look whats inside? (High level areas; MC5, graves, tunnels, labs, caves)

    My personal opinion is: A LE shouldnt work outside of citys where none is that can protect you. But that would just piss of like 50% of the playerbase and it would make the LE totally useless.

    A cool way to have the LE in game would be, if you get killed with a LE in, in a zone outside of a city, (no op zone) the player should get a bit of his cash removed to aid the LE player

  3. #3

    Default

    From a lore perspective, the LE restrain your emotion and hormones from having agressive behavior. It's a great idea to support low level player and protect them from very low lvl ganking.

    As you get higher levels, the xp and BR is supposed to mean you also get higher control over yourself and self awarness, wisdom of ceres comes as you overcap xp. So it makes sense that the LE would becoming limiting in your evolution.

    IIRC LE would auto-drop at BR45, focing players out of the noob protection and adapting to the real world of nc.

    Players will always adapt to what you give them. Give them a free LE that never drop, they will keep at as long as possible to min/max their powerleveling. To min/max their looting:
    Competent pvp players that make dedicated LE chars only to farm ugs or dungeons without pvp threats.
    This will always happen and we can all agree that it's just playres being smart and abusing a broken system.

    Instead if we removed the LE at BR45 like it was always intended to be. Players would quickly adapt and find quiet place to farm or gather in groups to protect themselves or recover their belt, or even get a revenge kill on that sneaky sniper spy.

    As long as LE remain plugged in your brain, those solo players won't merge with the community.

    And why do they keep the LE anyway ? From gearfear. They are afraid of losing one single item in their belt.
    Gear fear is very strong but it goes away after a few death. Then you get much more fun/emotion/drive from playing in a pvpve environement.

    I'm firmly against nerfing LE. Instead we should get rid of it beyong BR 45. Players WILL adapt and will have much more fun after.

  4. #4
    Registered User Celt's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 2003
    Location
    Hibernia
    Posts
    1,151

    Default

    Both of you are theorising what would happen if the LE malus were changed, ignoring that in Neocron 1 there wasn't an LE malus and the things you state would come to pass - didn't come to pass.

    The entire history of Neocron 1 goes against everything in both your posts - especially Fremen's. It's utter nonsense. LE's stopping players from being part of the community? Not wanting to get ganked repeatedly being about gearfear? LE's autodropping at BR45? Jesus Christ.

    This is the biggest issue with Neocron now. Current players (including those who actually played back then) are so divorced from the reality of what Neocron 1 was and especially why & how people played it, that the game will never attract & welcome any meaningful number of old players back.

    It's a graveyard of the developers and playerbase's own making.

    Players WILL adapt and will have much more fun after.
    No, they simply won't play. When I talked about this on discord a few months back, a player who had just returned, upon finding out about the current state of LE, quit and didn't come back. He's not alone.
    Last edited by Celt; 09-06-20 at 03:43.


    Quote Originally Posted by Oath
    I'll fear when i find your naked Droner Body and violate it

  5. #5
    former king of saturn
    Join Date
    February 2003
    Posts
    892

    Default

    The LE absolutely had a penalty for xp and money gains in NC1. I skipped the NC2 and NC2.1 eras only coming back during 2.2 The penalty is not new - nor is the fact that players can and do abuse the LE.

    Also- for a decent period in NC1, players dropped an item in a belt that was not locked and did not need hacking. On Saturn there was no such thing as a blacklist for people taking items even following the adoption of hacking to obtain the belt item. The concept of a blacklist just reeks of butthurt but I guess that's Uranus for you.

    Camping backpacks was a waste of time - the victim could pay at the GR to recover it. Camping the belt was a waste of time. The victor could just hack it. If anyone was legitimately camped at their belt or backpack, they were not exercising critical thought.

    This server is not a hardcore PVP leveling experience. If you think it is, you should probably try taking out your LE and leveling a little bit.

    You may be ganked on rare occasion but at this point that is most certainly the exception and not the rule.



    I have been victim of high-level LE players abusing the system on a number of occasions, and not only on Titan. On Saturn my clan had a big beef with a group of players who eventually beat us out of MC5 by simply re-implanting their LEs and farming the zone so we had no recourse. That should not have been an option then and I'm very happy it is not an option now.

    LE player afk in a dungeon. What can you do? Nothing
    LE player refusing to reset a dungeon. What can you do? Nothing
    LE player abusing vehicle physics to steal loot? What can you do? Nothing
    LE player following non-LEd players to announce their whereabouts and call for enemies. What can you do? Nothing


    If people won't play this game without a Law Enforcement chip, that's unfortunate and I regret losing that player. That said I would probably never interact with that player whatsoever - unless one day they decided they wanted to abuse me with their LE.

    I love NC1. If this server could be flushed and a real NC1 server put in place I'd be at the top of the list of people banging that drum. It's not NC1. It's Neocron Evolution. You can be sad about that but you should probably get over it - the rest of us have.

    Everyone here wants more players on the server. The biggest reason why there are so few new players joining this game is one that we'd probably need to ponder for a few centuries to convolute ourselves enough to really believe we understand. But it's not cut and dry around the LE in fact it probably generally has very little to do with the LE save for a few select players who again I regret not having but I'm not playing the game to hang out and chat with these people so other than theoretic regret there's no reason I care.

    If someone wants to throw a tantrum and log out never to log in again, I'm not going to give them mindshare. I'm going to assume they have poor impulse control and would have otherwise brought little to the table.

    This game is populated primarily by "legacy" players. Many of us, myself included, have come back after long periods away and have been faced with this same problem - we know a lot of our friends and server legends will never be back. We want it, we wish it, we reminisce about it in Discord.

    But they are not missing because of the Law Enforcer. They are not missing because developers and players have ruined this game.

    They are missing because they have lived lifetimes since we last saw them, they have moved on while we have not. Some may still think of Neocron fondly but many probably do not think of it often if at all. You can invoke their MIA status and we're all sympathetic about it, but it's a moot point and needs to be left 6 feet the hell under the earth.

    You want new players? Get this game in front the faces of people who have never heard of it or seen it before. If this game is going to see a sustained population increase - those are the people who will drive it. Even if they carebear and leave their LEs in.

  6. #6
    Registered User Celt's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 2003
    Location
    Hibernia
    Posts
    1,151

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Divide View Post
    The LE absolutely had a penalty for xp and money gains in NC1. I skipped the NC2 and NC2.1 eras only coming back during 2.2 The penalty is not new - nor is the fact that players can and do abuse the LE.

    Also- for a decent period in NC1, players dropped an item in a belt that was not locked and did not need hacking. On Saturn there was no such thing as a blacklist for people taking items even following the adoption of hacking to obtain the belt item. The concept of a blacklist just reeks of butthurt but I guess that's Uranus for you.
    Both of those things are incorrect.

    The LE malus was only for a few months in NC1, as was the unlocked belt. The latter was gone by February 2003, and I'm pretty sure the former was too although it was definitely gone by Summer 03

    Camping backpacks was a waste of time - the victim could pay at the GR to recover it. Camping the belt was a waste of time. The victor could just hack it. If anyone was legitimately camped at their belt or backpack, they were not exercising critical thought.
    You're thinking as a capped /60 player, not as a low level char new to the game.


    I have been victim of high-level LE players abusing the system on a number of occasions, and not only on Titan. On Saturn my clan had a big beef with a group of players who eventually beat us out of MC5 by simply re-implanting their LEs and farming the zone so we had no recourse. That should not have been an option then and I'm very happy it is not an option now.
    GM's removed a player from MC5 on Uranus for doing just that on the single occasion it happened to me.

    LE player afk in a dungeon. What can you do? Nothing
    Contact GMs
    LE player refusing to reset a dungeon. What can you do? Nothing
    Contact GMs
    LE player abusing vehicle physics to steal loot? What can you do? Nothing
    Contact GMs
    LE player following non-LEd players to announce their whereabouts and call for enemies. What can you do? Nothing
    lol

    The concept that "because in isolated incidents something can be abused, we should remove or ban it completely" is pretty irrational. I guess we should ban pretty much everything in existence with that attitude.

    If people won't play this game without a Law Enforcement chip, that's unfortunate and I regret losing that player. That said I would probably never interact with that player whatsoever - unless one day they decided they wanted to abuse me with their LE.
    Do you have a chat filter for LEd people. Do you refuse to trade with them or get poked by them? Would you refuse to interact with the non-LEd people who come back and stuck around because the community and server feels more vibrant and full? And it's not as if people ever remove LEs, join clans, start engaging in PVP either. That's never happened!

    I love NC1. If this server could be flushed and a real NC1 server put in place I'd be at the top of the list of people banging that drum. It's not NC1. It's Neocron Evolution. You can be sad about that but you should probably get over it - the rest of us have.
    I don't think one brainport thread needs 'getting over', but thanks for condescending to me while getting your primary points wrong. Also, when you say "the rest of us" I'm guessing you mean the 20-40 or so active players? That isn't exactly a strong support for your argument.

    I played the legacy NC1 servers that were kept going after NC2 launched (something about kk/10t being contractually obliged to keep providing them) and as empty as they were a year or two later, they still looked abundant compared to any numbers I've seen on these servers in the last 10 years. The handful of times I've logged in, I've been lucky to see 3 or 4 people chatting.

    It's clear that returning players are bouncing off NC hard (or never even attempt to return). Trying to understand why should be a pretty important topic for anyone who wants the game to grow, and it's where 'new changes' (as opposed to changes to making the game function and run better) should be aimed if there is a genuine desire for playerbase to grow - not pleasing the existing super-hardcore revisionist crowd. The concept of a company that slips into the mindset of "designing products that please our existing customers" is well known in business as one of the most common ways for both a company and a product to fail.

    Everyone here wants more players on the server. The biggest reason why there are so few new players joining this game is one that we'd probably need to ponder for a few centuries to convolute ourselves enough to really believe we understand.
    Making a game which has a target demographic of people who now have more responsibilities and less free time, while making small changes that make the game less accessible isn't a particularly 'out there' concept to see as being detrimental. Classic WoW was a massive success, it wouldn't have been if it hadn't been significantly more friendly as a new player experience than actual vanilla WoW. Strangely, no-one in that community was clamouring for a more hardcore and less friendly experience.


    If someone wants to throw a tantrum and log out never to log in again, I'm not going to give them mindshare. I'm going to assume they have poor impulse control and would have otherwise brought little to the table.
    Having better experiences to enjoy than being penalised as a new player for not wanting to get ganked or arbitrarily lose progress /=/ having a tantrum, having poor impulse control or bringing little to the table. It's a bad faith argument to make.

    This game is populated primarily by "legacy" players. Many of us, myself included, have come back after long periods away and have been faced with this same problem - we know a lot of our friends and server legends will never be back. We want it, we wish it, we reminisce about it in Discord.

    But they are not missing because of the Law Enforcer. They are not missing because developers and players have ruined this game.

    They are missing because they have lived lifetimes since we last saw them, they have moved on while we have not. Some may still think of Neocron fondly but many probably do not think of it often if at all. You can invoke their MIA status and we're all sympathetic about it, but it's a moot point and needs to be left 6 feet the hell under the earth.
    Any of the people whom I played NC with and am still in touch with, still play games - they just play games more casually. It's not as if they swore off gaming, they just have less free time and more enjoyable, accessable experiences to choose from. Neocron should in theory be great as a "pick up and go" experience since it's so freeform with little downtime and unnecessary make-work almost entirely absent from the game and yet....

    You want new players? Get this game in front the faces of people who have never heard of it or seen it before. If this game is going to see a sustained population increase - those are the people who will drive it. Even if they carebear and leave their LEs in.
    Being reasonable, there isn't a fresh untapped market for a game as dated, as old, as rough and as raw as Neocron. Even when NC came out it was niche (and reviewed poorly) because of how old it looked, felt and *played* (janky) and I think it's quite silly to argue that 16 years later, there's some sort of meaningful untapped market for new players outside of the odd person here and there who wanders by.


    I wrote an attempt at a rational post that tried to look at the concept of (and potential consequences of) LE's logically. I had hoped for better than "PVP gud, LE bad". I don't the LE malus is a huge issue, particularly as it's invisible to most of the people who return to the game and leave (hence the constant surprise when it's mentioned). It is however, one of many unfriendly aspects that should be relatively simple changes and that together could make for a more attractive experience and one that gives players a chance to really engage with NC.

    It's also emblematic of how negatively both devs and active players view even a minor change that doesn't affect them because "muh hardcore mmo". That attitude is why NC is most likely doomed, not some sort of LE malus.


    Quote Originally Posted by Oath
    I'll fear when i find your naked Droner Body and violate it

  7. #7
    Registered User
    Join Date
    October 2002
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    209

    Default

    Have a look at this thread form November 2016:
    https://forum.neocron-game.com/showt...r-vs-Clan-Join

    Nothing has changed in that regard nearly 4 years later!

    I quote myself:

    It is the age old NC problem.
    It was it 14 years ago and it is it still today.

    Lets make a hardcore hardcore open world PvP MMO.
    Yes, you can do that but this will keep the game always a niche game.

    I remember the days where all of Via Rosso and Plaza were safe zones, gone.
    I remember removed LE malus, gone.
    I even remember a failed all anarchy server that some forum guys wanted so badly, but in the end that seems to be too hardcore for even the hardcore crowd.

    KK listend only to the vocal PvP forum minority, and people like me saying this where called carebears.

    Now the NST put back in LE malus for some reasons, maybe to "incentive" players to join the "PvP" crowd.
    But forcing or penalise people will make them quit.
    But they are all simply too weak for NC, aren't they?

    If that is their vision, so be it.

    I simply don't care anymore. Sadly.
    NC3 kommt!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •