1. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by onero S View Post
    Imo hybrids feel strong in op fights largely because they bring the antibuff (a spy or perhaps can always be the noob buffer with an apu). Apus becoming antibuff kings will help a lot.

    I'd rather see rare weapon dps (ideally by tweaking reticule behavior) go up than nerfing shields. Hybrids and pes will die a bit faster and time to kill in normal fights will go down a bit. This would make hybrids and pes do comparatively less damage than other classes which will preserve their role but give pure classes more of a niche (and defensive classes will die faster since people will be hitting more consistently).
    This would adress Hybrids but not blessed Shield PE's as their damage would be increased as well. A small tweak to blessed Shields shouldn't be that bad right?
    .

  2. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Odimara Orca View Post
    This would adress Hybrids but not blessed Shield PE's as their damage would be increased as well. A small tweak to blessed Shields shouldn't be that bad right?
    .

    No, of course not, it's definitely one way to do things. Could also make blessed heal a little harder to cap.

  3. #18

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    I think the biggest issue to adress first is weapons not registering.. I have a feeling that has something to do with netcode though and will be a rough thing to fix. But if it isn't, or is but fixable, that ideally should be the stsrting point, as almost half the rares are effected by this. Last night I was using a dev on an alt to test aiming on a stationary target, you can miss with full lock while nobody is moving even, does not seen right.

    After hit registration is looked into damage and aiming could slowly be adjusted over time.

  4. #19

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    I second Arzons suggestion Registering / Netcode should be priority one.

  5. #20

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    Thirded! Once weapons work as the should, balance numbers can be dialed in.

  6. #21

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    If you need any help with testing I am willing to help, as I assume others in this thread are
    Last edited by Arzon; 04-04-19 at 18:23.

  7. #22

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    Hey all,

    Great discussions still going on here which I'm pleased to see.

    I've noticed talk stray to particular items which need addressing so I've created another thread to record these. I'd appreciate if you could record your ideas over there so I can keep better logs of the ideas regarding each issue

    https://forum.neocron-game.com/showt...56#post2241056

    I would move the posts but didn't want to mess things up ^^.
    Virtus
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  8. #23
    Xpertz William Antrim's Avatar
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    If netcode couldnt be fixed in a short amount of time (and had to make do with the existing code) would that affect your choices? The reason I ask is because I understand your desire to balance weapons but netcode balancing may take way longer than the incremental changes described above.

    I understand the NST has made significant changes to the base game over the last 6+ (i think) years but i dont know how much of the netcode has ever been altered. Originally the game was designed to run on dialup internet (nerr noo nerr noo squeeeeek do do ooo do - you might hear it, you might not) and so it might not be all that easy to change this element.

    To that end, if the only "easy" to implement fixes were incremental changes to values it might be best to have these on a practical list, as opposed to a wish list.

    My practical list would be - make ALL weapons under Tl100 viable and scale the damage off that swing point (not talking values here, just generically). Id like to see the game at a point where PE is the entry point to PVP (the class not the weapon) and the others are the "advanced" classes in their respective fields. Others have argued this would make the game more FPS than MMO but I would argue that in this day and age that that is a strength as opposed to a weakness.

    My wish list would be - reimagine the entire game using an engine made in the last decade and have netcode and stability to go with it. You can see how the two are wildly different. I love reading this stuff however and i am glad the boards have lit up more recently with activity. So props to you all for that.

    What happened to the last balancing guy? did he leave?
    "dulce et decorum est pro patria mori"

  9. #24

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    What about this as first proposal, then move into individual weapon adjustment?

    1) Remove low-level antibuff, make Unprotector and holy antibuffs 170 APU (take them away from almost all hybrids, even with psi buff). Now hybrids don't counter hybrids.

    2) Make anti shield nanites easier to use for spies.

    3) Increase reticule close speed, increase delay before it opens all the way, reduce miss chance with partially closed reticule.

    I think doing these things would go a long way towards seeing more variety.

  10. #25

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    Issue with removing antis from hybrid (though I agree it is a good first step) is that they would then literally be unkillable (if played right) in 1v1 or 1v2. Only APUs having anti is a fine first step, but then they will need a survivability increase as they will be focused down instantly in every fight.

    The strength of antibuff is not in the antibuff itself, but in the foreign shields being applied after (if you catch the person off guard). If APU gets antibuff only (which I would like, but needs more additional changes) then we reach a few issues. 1. APUs won't be ran in current state as they are too squishy and even if they do get an antibuff off, the hybrid will just recast shield in a 1v1 setting, in an op sighting you could potentially coordinate with a hyrid or pe, but with how chaotic coms can be at times or how much is going on it would be rough. 2. You are removing the only effective way of dealing with hybrids in a 1v 1-3 setting.

    It is hard to balance antibuffing without buffing APU and nerfing hybrid Survivabilities. In the past (like 2 weeks ago) I would have suggested nerfing blessed shields.. after seeing PEs in op fights that don't have blessed shields being pretty much the highest death rate, and noticing a strong difference with and without on a PE, that would destroy another class nearly just to balance hybrids. I can see why KK gutted hybrids now tbh, while some people enjoy playing them, they become a nightmare when trying to balance the game.
    Last edited by Arzon; 10-04-19 at 13:52.

  11. #26

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    This is a fair point, but I think having a class counter itself is often very degenerate. Wonder if anti-nanite spies with noob buffs could be part of the solution. Slightly lower tier 1 shield reqs too?

    Edit: Noob buffing could also be removed as a mechanic (with shields). In its place could be a high apu-req module that prevents Shields from sticking (for a specific color). Nanite version could also be added. This would essentially keep noob buffing in the game, but give it to apus and spies (to be clear, these would only work if someone had no shields, just like noob buffing).

    Just proposing this stuff as a first step, it may be that additional balance changes (Apu survivability and hc, pc, rc damage/aiming for instance) need to be taken down the road (as well as individual weapon balancing).

    Total side note, what if APUs received a self cast (30 seconds?) only buff providing some percentage lifesteal from damage delt. It would also apply a longer (60 seconds?) buff preventing the module from being recast until it expired to prevent 100 percent uptime.
    Last edited by onero S; 10-04-19 at 15:39.

  12. #27

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    Some possible solutions i collected in my mind so far:
    - Adjust Netcode
    - Adjust Rare Damage (for currently useless ones)
    - Adjust low TL weapon damage (slightly downwards)

    - Proliferate pure APU's/PPU's compared to Hybrids
    -- Give Antibuff to pure APU's (170 APU requirement)
    -- Let points spent im APU/PPU impact frequency (substantial gains should start at around 160 APU/PPU)
    - Tweak blessed shields to a more reasonable damage absorbtion (downwards)
    - Remodel PSI Shield (200 APU req, substantial Damage reduction, not castable together with other Shields / Nanites)

    Effects:

    - More weapon variety
    - Hybrid health and damage lowered
    - Pure APU health, damage and utility higher
    - Pure PPU utility higher
    - Blessed PE health and damage lowered

    Additional thoughts:

    There is an Argument to reduce the power of Holy and Rare Shields further. With PPU points affecting frequency this could even end up balanced.

    The Hybrid/APU/PPU problems (and to a degree blessed PE's) all revolve around shields and their counters.
    Either shields need to be less accessible (no blessed PE's, no Hybrids), less effective or a combination of both (for example the role defining spells like Rare Shields and Antibuff should have very high APU/PPU requirements and Shields could be slightly less effective).

    Antibuffs could also deny the recasting of shields for a set amount of time (per debuff)

    Regards

    Odi
    Last edited by Odimara Orca; 10-04-19 at 19:55.

  13. #28

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    Any news or updates on this? Just fixing weapons firing randomly would go a long way for weapon variety. There are some weapons I really miss being good to use. The flamethrower misses with a fully closed reticle.


    Melee range could use a slight bit of tweaking especially Warbots Bane.
    Last edited by newbie642; 27-04-19 at 14:53.

  14. #29

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    Hi,

    Currently tweaking aiming this afternoon and hoping to have an update on PTS asap for you guys.

    The more guys testing the better, as the issues are more apparent with quick moving targets rather the the slower mobs so any guys comfortable jumping on pts to pvp would be great.

    I'll put a shout out on here and discord when the update goes up.
    Virtus
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  15. #30

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    First iteration of aiming improvements is now live on PTS for all to test.
    Virtus
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