1. #1
    eXodus Clan ****************** Skansy's Avatar
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    Default Stealther Changes?!

    Hi there ... most player are thinking Stealthing is to overpowered ...

    We have a mass of ideas to improve the balancing.
    I just throw in some ... u can say something to that.


    - Making Stealth Cloud aimable.

    - Adding a Cooldown to Stealthtools.

    - Adding a Slow effect to Stealth effect.


    What do u think?

  2. #2

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    This thread is literally---- I am bad at aiming... please nerf stealth so i can get easier kills. If you are having problems with stealther you should make some practice. Never had a problem killing a stealther.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobhoskins View Post
    This thread is literally---- I am bad at aiming... please nerf stealth so i can get easier kills. If you are having problems with stealther you should make some practice. Never had a problem killing a stealther.
    This is basically what I tried to say in discord yesterday which is weird. Bob = Zoltan confirmed!?

    @Skansy the argument "Drugflash after stealth" is missing and what makes you think the "most players are thinking sealthing is overpowered"? As long I saw it just a bunch of ppl sitting in Discord flaming each other with ppl who don't think that stealth is op.

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  4. #4

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    Alright so.
    Can you hit a Stealther while they're stealthed if you'r eusing Rifles or Melee?
    No. That in itself is evidence of a design flaw

    How many times in a Row can someone stealth before there's any sor tof consequence?
    It's 30 with the Jones Stealth Tool

    Is AoE a Reliable solution on the current Retail version of the game?
    Only if you're using APU Spells. The WIld Inacuracy of Rockets, and other AoE Weapons coupled with the additional Self Damage means that it is not an acceptable or even ideal solution.

    When Stealth was first introduced in NC two things I remember clearly are:
    1.)You could Stealth for 10 Seconds instead of 5 as a PE
    2.) After you had stealthed 3 times in a row you started to see some pretty bad status effects for doing so.

    As I've said above you can stealth 30 times before you get a minor drug flash with the Jones tool. The Flash from stealthing 30+ times isn't even as bad as drinking 1 Booze.

    No one is aksing you to nerf stealth into the ground. What people are asking for is taht Stealth isn't an "I win" button for anyone with the Stealth Activator III or Obliterator..

    In other games you move slower in Stealth, and you can't restealth immediately after stealthing. True Sight is working "better." I'm a PE and the Rocket Pistol or a "Baby Judge" it is just not possible to kill a Stealther after the AoE nerf with the Rocket Pistol, The Rocket pistol even while standing perfectly still in first person will still shoot the ground in front of you 25% of the time if you have no target lock.(Which you won't because you're fighting someone that can't be target locked)

    A player should not be able to run around stealthed for 30 minutes regardless of how much they can attack during this time. ANd I'm pretty sure because the Obliterator for example lasts 60 seconds it negates any of the drug flash you'd get stacking up from using a lower TL one.

    There are two logical solutions i see to this problem, one effects the people that rely on stealth to survive a little harder than the other.

    1.) Add a cooldown to Stealth tool activation that scales up through the Tech Levels. i.e. The Obliterator would takes 12 seconds to reactivate.
    2.) Increase the rate in which the drug flash stacks. Maybe the original way KK had it was too extreme but i can spend almost 3 minutes stealthed on my PE and Run all the way around the city int aht time due to the size of the zones before i get drug flash.

    THe argument in Discord got heated and stupid when the flame war started. But there's a lot of merit to the argument that's being presented and it's not just people in Rekless presneting the argument. My entire clan that was at The Soliko event last year quit because of constatly getting ganked by Stealth and Zone whroes while they were leveling. They got fed up and left. Skansy and Prototype sat there and talked to me and Jack for 2 hours lst night about ways to fix it, as well.

    The best solution to all of this is to Rebuilt DoY though.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strafinmir View Post
    Alright so.
    Can you hit a Stealther while they're stealthed if you're using Rifles or Melee?
    No. That in itself is evidence of a design flaw

    /thread

    Literally just make the stealth cloud targetable and I guarantee 99% of people will stop bitching about it.

    I don't know why there's any discussion on it.
    The Melee Pusher

    Patiently waiting when I can use a Greatsaber in the wastes of Neocron

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmurph101 View Post
    /thread

    Literally just make the stealth cloud targetable and I guarantee 99% of people will stop bitching about it.

    I don't know why there's any discussion on it.
    Because Stealth is some people's "WIN" button and they don't want it changed, and while the problem isn't actively effecting BG or GP it's being considered a Rekless problem instead of a game design problem. But Skansy isn't in Rekless and neither is Prototype and they've both openly agreed with members of Rekless about it. It seems to me that things only need to be balanced when we're "abusing" it.

    Look at how quickly Kami Drones were looked at when we were using them. Now they're practically useless, and people still don't understand that we were softening up targets before we killed them with the Kami and we'd end up killing each other with them all the time.

  7. #7
    freedom for neocron! Torg's Avatar
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    Default

    stealth is not a "win button" as you can't shoot while stealthed. stealth is a "non-pvp-button" instead, a game mechanic most counter strike artists a incapabable of understanding. at least that's the impression i get when i'm reading his thread.

  8. #8
    Xpertz William Antrim's Avatar
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    Default

    Dont bash other people when you are trying to make a point guys, it doesnt add anything to the discussion and it makes you look foolish. It is best to critique the idea rather than flame the person.

    Providing anecdotal evidence and saying - I can kill stealthers so stealth is fine, is one of the worst ways you can try to balance a mechanic. It simply doesnt do anything. It is an opinion sure but it can be countered by saying "well I cant" and then where are we? no further forward.

    As for the stealth tool. Personally I think it should be removed from the game. I didnt like it when it was first introduced and I dont like it now. As it is in the game I have used it and I will use it because at times I have found it to be inherently useful in certain situations. However, there is a huge difference between use and misuse.

    For me stealth is like a mobile zoneline to hide in. It just goes with you every where you go. My issue with the pvp in this game is that its just not satisfying on the whole because nobody dies. In order for a fight to be rewarding you need to kill people, to do this on the whole my experience has always been that you need to go to an Op fight.

    Small scale pvp inherently involves overuse of the stealth tool and/or a combination of ppu buffs from a safe zone and running back there on half health. There are so many separate issues surrounding a good quality fight that it can be overwhelming wondering where to start.

    However if you do a search about stealth tools in NC then nigh on every thread has been criticising them. The last time this issue popped up I suggested giving the PE class a stealth breaking item (TSS lite) which would be accessible to them and low level PPUs - something akin to the rare spell but not as successful.

    Personally I am in favour of having a cool down on them or having high requirements in another statistic - not combat related - in order that Tradeskillers can use the obliterator/stealth 3 (for defensive purposes) and not being abused by combat ready chars. That is, if they cant be removed entirely.

    I levelled up my first spy and fought with him in the time before stealth and whilst I could see a benefit to a 10 second stealth tool back then, the way things have changed to now I think that it is overpowered in all honesty.

    If you make the blue cloud targetable unfortunately you remove almost all benefit of stealth instantly and I dont see this being a viable option for the majority of those who need/want stealth. It reduces it to almost complete ineffectiveness in a heartbeat. If some people require this I think you risk alienating them with this strategy, as much as I agree with it.

    What really needs to be identified here is WHY people need stealth and then look at those issues in order to mitigate the requirement. Is it due to PVE issues? Is it for safe travel around the world? Is it because spies, without the stealth, lack much of a defensive capability that can allow them to survive in the pvp environment. You can make an argument for all 3 of these ideas.

    It might be good to have a counter-requirement placed on the higher level stealth activators even to balance it out - like if you have combat skills specced (pc rc etc) you cant use anything above stealth 2 for example? Sure it doesnt do much for the lore but it would help balance PVP, depends which you think is more important.

    An alternative might also be - too much stealth usage starts to give you a very small amount of synaptic impairment? this way you can use it a few times to pass a particularly troublesome encounter but are free to continue beyond it. However if the troublesome encounter is combat related perhaps you have to start thinking about the negatives involved to your entire set up. Admittedly SI will wear off very likely before your stealth runs out if it is balanced well enough but its another idea which may complement it without making it completely unusable.

    At the end of the day, if stealth is required I think the easiest way to balance it is reduce the requirement on it - as in the need of the player, rather than the requirement in skill points. If this means upping spies defences then so be it. I think at the bare minimum it needs a cooldown after prolonged use so that people do occasionally die. However this is all just my opinion. Others will see it differently of course.
    "dulce et decorum est pro patria mori"

  9. #9

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    I'd like to see stealth used more tactically.

    My first choice would be a cooldown. Would force spies have to decide which tool is best for the situation and lessen their control over every engagement they currently have. If you want the extra safety take a longer stealth and risk sacrificing constant pressure on an enemy for that extra safety. If you want to apply more pressure take a shorter one but risk not getting away as easily if things go wrong.

    Second choice would be a punishment for repeated stealthing; I prefer the SI option as drugflash is easily combated by taking a drug and lower levels of DF are negligible. I personally think the 3rd stealth of any duration should carry noticeable hindrance.

    A way for tradeskillers to access stealth without impacting their dex tradeskills too much would be good too. Tradeskill PAs with a high TC bonus and combat malus?
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  10. #10
    freedom for neocron! Torg's Avatar
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    Default

    Seems like everybody is talking about their own style of playing. To me, the stealth tool always was a great tool for... well... spying. Snooping around enemy lines. Or pulling out of a hopeless fight. But i'm also with you guys to see a problem with short-time stealth tools (jones), making fights against on-and-off stealthers more frustrating. What's your opinion: Isn't the Jones stealth tool the real problem? Would removing or changing it be enough to end the discussion?

  11. #11

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    Stealthing is part of the Spy's kit. There's nothing wrong with that. PE's have access to it as well, but it's not as necessary for a majority of setups (due to the PE being more hardy than his Spy counterpart).

    Making the stealth cloud targetable doesn't render stealth useless at all. The cloud itself can only be spotted from a few meters away. If no one is complaining about the Spy's ability to go invisible. That is - and SHOULD be - part of his/her playstyle.

    The issue is that when you find a cloaked player, he can literally be afk for 30 seconds while you're standing in front of him, and unless you have an extremely specific weapon on you, you CANNOT injure him. Even a fully buffed PPU who is hiding in a corner will be able to be killed. The Spy is the ONLY class in game who is granted invulnerability to damage outside of the basic LE that is provided to everyone else.

    The Spy is the ONLY class who, after removing his LE, can decide IN THE MIDDLE OF A FIGHT he doesn't want other players injuring him. And, again, unless you're carrying extremely specific weapons, you can do nothing about it.

    All this other mumbo jumbo about adding SI, cooldowns, drug-flashes, etc. is irrelevant to the issue. Stealth is abused because players go all the way to 10% life, Stealth, and then walk out. If you could still punish them while they were stealthed, you'd be able to finish that stealthed player off 9/10 times and the issue would resolve itself. And it would inherently lead to more tactical stealth usage.
    The Melee Pusher

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  12. #12
    freedom for neocron! Torg's Avatar
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    When stealth was introduced in NC 2, the Spy was a different char class: Weaker than tanks, monks or PEs, and only to be used by specialists. With the changes after that (WoC etc) the Spy became more of a general combat class, to an extent, when many ppl opted for a Spy because of their extremely high DPS. Changing this back would probably make many ppl unhappy, so what i could imagine is a further specialization for using stealth, i.e. adding HCK as a requirement, so the stealther char would have less SP in other DEX subskills. Making the blue cloud targetable beyond AoE (as it is now), like b proposes, would render the stealth tool nearly useless.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Torg View Post
    When stealth was introduced in NC 2, the Spy was a different char class: Weaker than tanks, monks or PEs, and only to be used by specialists. With the changes after that (WoC etc) the Spy became more of a general combat class, to an extent, when many ppl opted for a Spy because of their extremely high DPS. Changing this back would probably make many ppl unhappy, so what i could imagine is a further specialization for using stealth, i.e. adding HCK as a requirement, so the stealther char would have less SP in other DEX subskills. Making the blue cloud targetable beyond AoE (as it is now), like b proposes, would render the stealth tool nearly useless.
    This is 100% false.

    - The cloud can only be seen from extremely close range
    - The cloud is difficult to track when moving at all
    - The cloud falls off in visibility at a rapid rate once cloaker moves further away
    - The cloud is meant to momentarily hide your position, not grant you immortality against a Direct weapon damage setup
    The Melee Pusher

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  14. #14
    Xpertz William Antrim's Avatar
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    Default

    Also the changes made to the game at the dawn of NC2 were not FOR the spy but the spy made the most use out of them in combat as an aside. It was the change to hightech combat which gave the spy such a huge advantage, coupled with the terrible idea of WOC.

    In NC1 the PE had a ten second stealth, we only got the jones tools etc in NC2. People didnt bitch back then because Damage boost was easier to cast and provided a good counter to stealth - you could tag another PE with the db and follow his cloud for 10 seconds and track him. Spies could drug for shelter back then also and so stealth was used to temporarily evade fights in order to rebuff and fight back. I dont know much about the current flavour of the month at the moment in the game obviously but I also dont think much has changed in terms of stealth since I last played.

    The reason I go to this length to explain this is because it provided a solution to the issues that Bmurph has provided above me but with the changes within the game as it stands have left some of these counteractions less than ideal.

    So in summary it seems to me that the problems havent gone away in terms of stealth and i agree more does need to be done. Personally I am in favour of adding stealth breaking possibilities (a basic TSS style psi module would be good) to the PE's repertoire. I would like to see more R/P/S systems put in place to counter some of the mechanics with FPS skill and aiming as the underlying bedrock of combat. This would open the field for more classes and capabilities and hopefully go back to the diversity we used to see in this game, before monkocron.
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