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  1. #1
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    Default Community discussion - improvements for new players

    Tonight, we held a brain storming session on Discord regarding the difficulties that new players have upon joining the game (and some other things that will go in other posts).

    Overview:

    The main agreement appears to be the current grinding, and lack of information available to new players. On top of this, the cost of equipment, and quality of missions.

    Suggested resolutions (or notes) are listed below the issue, and are marked with a > at the start of the sentence.


    Starting a new character

    • Starting equipment
      New characters start with items which are not necessary to their 'class'.
      Starting weapons for Droners, PPU and Soldiers are currently underpowered. Soul Cluster doesn't always target mobs. Drones do 1 damage a hit, and must be point blank to hit. Soldiers have 2 lots of grenades, which go all over the place, and currently do more damage to the player than a scorpion in the starting area.

      > Reworking starting equipment to ensure a more balanced introduction. Provide all characters only with relevant and useful items.

      > Rework damage for starting equipment to balance it out better, or provide more ammo for indirect fire weapons, which will use more ammo.
    • Starting Skills
      Not all the 'classes' have skills which are useful to them.

      > Rework the suggested starting skills, to prevent redundancies. Keep the option for more experiences players to adjust the suggested starting skills.
    • Highlight difficult classes
      Things like Hacker and PPU require more advanced understanding of the game.

      > Rate classes from Easy (soldier/PE) to Hard (PPU, Hacker).
    • Some factions are more advanced than others
      TG, TH and CM are more difficult to begin in and could be isolating for new players.

      > Mark them as Hard, or Advanced, so that players know what they can expect.



    Lack of new player information

    Although we currently have the /help channel to allow runners to ask questions - it would be helpful to proactively provide information to them.

    • Citycom Tutorials - Adding a series of short reference tutorials to the Citycom would allow players to look up advice on things like buying equipment, where to level, how to do quests (etc.). If we could have an in-game browser, this would allow a Wiki added to the game, with all relevant material covered.
    • Video Tutorials - A series of short tutorials, hosted through YouTube, and which can be played within the game would be a brilliant source of information for players. If an in-game browser was added, this could also provide a platform for imbedding the videos.



    MC5 Area


    • Quests - Currently the signposts to the first of the newbie quests is not obvious enough.

      > Have it so that characters start with the quest to speak with the first NPC, so that he appears on their Nav when they first leave the Cryo Facility.
    • Equipment Costs - Items within the newbie area are too expensive.

      > The research mission asks you to purchase items which can cost thousands of credits.

      > I found last time that the requested weapon was 5.5K - this mean grinding mobs to buy the weapon, then grinding more to afford the GR to my apartment.

      > The GR shouldn't charge to take players to their first apartment to avoid players getting 'stuck' in MC5 and having to grind.
    • Equipment Relevance - There are items on the first vendors which just aren't relevant, such as ammo for WoC weapons.

      > Create a new list of newbie specific item groups, with subsidised pricing, to ease players into the game.

      I started a PPU and knew to put points into Rifle so I could actually kill things, since Soul Cluster is broken - how many newbies would think they'd have to do that right off the bat?
    • Healing, armour, recycling - levelling is basically horrible until you get these three things.

      > Players should be provided a full set of armour, a TL3 heal or equivalent and a recycling tool, plus the skills required to use them, by the time they leave MC5. This will allow them to focus their funds and effort on levelling, rather than hunting these items - IF they even know about them and their benefit in the first place.



    Levelling
    • Grind (levelling) - Other than MC5 missions and EPICs, there is not much more than grinding in the way of levelling up a character.

      > Introduce a series of mini-quests, which can be started in popular areas such as Plaza 1. These are arranged similarly to EPICs, in that they will require players to complete several tasks around the city, and grant decent items (allow players to choose from a list to cater for unusual setups) and large XP rewards for their completion. Either mark the missions on the map, or have the NPC contact the player to let them know where they can find the content.

      > Up the XP gain. The main aim of the game is PVP. It was speculated that the grind should be shortened to allow players to begin end-game content quicker.
    • Cash - if XP is raised, it could mean that players are unable to afford new items to keep up with the pace of their levelling.

      > Credits are mostly irrelevant towards end-game, with most items now bartered with tech parts. Up the credits reward for all missions, except research, to allow players to have a cash flow that will balance with their levelling rate.
    • Too many players relying on a limited number of spots to level us. Let's face it - drone/grenade launcher + El Farid = levelling. Sure, some players don't, but the overwhelming majority do. And it makes the ones that do it without an LE a very easy target.

      > There's a lot of unused space out in the wastes that could accommodate levelling areas. The main thing that makes EF so convenient is the fact that the Queen spawns Big Scorpions, that spawn little Scorpions in turn. This makes for quick spawn rates, quick XP, and quick money - all in a limited sized area. Introduce more areas with this general mechanic perhaps? Providing more areas will allow players the opportunity to scout out their own favourites.
    • Levelling spot ganking. Log out in the levelling zone. Kill anyone without an LE. Log out in the zone to avoid repercussions. Too easy. Soul Light too low? Just idle somewhere until it regenerates.

      > Introduce an elevated loss of soul light for ganking in levelling areas. Currently, having high Soul Light incurs a lower penalty for killing than having a low Soul Light, so players bag a couple of kills and idle in Plaza till they have high Soul Light and don't drop items in their belt as easily/their belt is harder to hack if they're caught. Make it a BIG penalty for killing in a levelling spot, and the occurrence will drop, as players are more worried about dropping their stuff.



    LE and PVP
    • LEs are counter-productive for the game. This is a PVP game, and there's not a big enough incentive to remove an LE.

      > Player XP should cap at around /45. This will allow a player to complete their Epic missions before getting into the main content. Once they get to /45, the XP should cap, and they cannot carry on gaining until they remove their LE.

      > Alternatively, LEs should not work outside of the city. There are sufficient levelling areas to avoid contact with other players in the wastelands. Quoting: "If you are a trader and want to sit in an outpost to get the bonus you shouldn’t be unkillable". It IS a Warzone, after all.
    • Dropping items in belts. Currently, if a low-level player removes their LE and is PKed, they can potentially lose an item that is integral to their development. Conversely, the chances that this item is worth taking for the PKer is low. With this in mind, you have a situation where the PKed player could potentially just be demoralised to the point of quitting, for the sake of the PKer gaining a few thousand credits at Yo’s.

      > Players under /45 don't drop items in belts. By /45 they should have had time to learn the game, and stand a better chance of escaping an attack.
    • Benefits of a clan are not explained. Clans are, for the most part, very important in NC. They provide protection, and a way to crowdsource resources. Any item lost in a dropped belt is likely easily replaced if in a clan, meaning losses are minimal.

      > More advertising of the benefits of clans, and how they outweigh getting PKed is required. In-game posters could be a nice way of doing this, as well as an article in the above-mentioned tutorials.

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
    LE and PVP
    [*] LEs are counter-productive for the game.
    Here we go again.
    What is wrong with you?
    Just leave LE players alone already.
    Dont try to force people to play the game YOU want them to play it!
    It is their choice so let them.
    LE players dont pose a threat nor do they influence the gameplay of a non LE player.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
    This is a PVP game, and there's not a big enough incentive to remove an LE.
    NC isnt just a PVP game. Its what you make out of it. It "can" be a PVP game, it can be a trading game or a RP game or whatever you want it to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
    > Player XP should cap at around /45. This will allow a player to complete their Epic missions before getting into the main content. Once they get to /45, the XP should cap, and they cannot carry on gaining until they remove their LE.
    This is just a terrible idea.
    You are just trying to force people to remove their LE so you can impose your playstyle upon them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
    Alternatively, LEs should not work outside of the city.
    Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
    "If you are a trader and want to sit in an outpost to get the bonus you shouldn’t be unkillable". It IS a Warzone, after all.
    Again,why?
    So you can agonize and kill traders who wont stand a chance since they are set up for trading?
    Whats the point? You are just looking for excuses to gank players.
    All nice and covered up in a "suggestion" list.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonwolf View Post
    Again,why?
    So you can agonize and kill traders who wont stand a chance since they are set up for trading?
    Whats the point? You are just looking for excuses to gank players.
    All nice and covered up in a "suggestion" list.
    Ok why they should be killable in an Outpost?
    Because if they use the bonus, you have your what is wrong with LE , they may contribute nothing to the clans that fought for the Outpost, the traders in the Clan do something for the Clan and they are killable.
    With the Bonus of the Outpost its possible to research TL150 Missions without failing and then you have a Safe Cash Printing Machine ingame -> Economy gets broken more and more

    And what is kinda sad that you only comment on the LE part of the List
    Last edited by Chazz; 24-03-17 at 02:17.

  4. #4
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    Default

    Lemonwolf - I'm just providing the notes from the community discussion. They're not my ideas, but ideas from a cross-reference of players.

  5. #5

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    Quick thought as I started to read through, please enable all the chat channels by default. Having them disabled must make the game awfully lonely!

  6. #6

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    I rarely remove my LE whilst leveling, because i dont like being PKed at Cyclop Launchers just because i need to take a phone call or make a drink.
    But i like the idea of being forced to remove it to continue progressing.
    For non Pvpers , the only incentive to remove your LE is for that 4th implant slot and slightly faster leveling(?). But at low levels, it just doesnt justify the potential possibility of being PKed.
    Without the incentives provided on the list, people probably wont drop the LE.
    Ive never been in a clan. Like the list suggests, i have no idea about clans, how they work or what the point is. Good idea

    Having the LE not function outside NC is a good idea, and would make a lot of sense, as it is a CA product(I think), but it would be kind of pointless even having an LE after lvl 20ish, which is normally when people make their voyage to MB. The majority of a players time will be outside NC leveling. And the little time they are inside Nc will more than likely be at Plaza1 asking for pokes and shittalking people that killed them. The 5% of the time they are in NC and not at Plaza1 will be at HQs,HEWs and smugglers. Majority of which have copbots or guards. Might as well remove LE from the game if that happens.
    Last edited by ChrisTehClue; 12-04-17 at 21:57.

  7. #7
    Do-A-Dan danmalone's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshCooper View Post
    Quick thought as I started to read through, please enable all the chat channels by default. Having them disabled must make the game awfully lonely!
    So much of this, I remember when I first started and didn't have a clue about all these hidden channels!

    Hi btw, just checking in - Lacking new stuff to play at the moment so considering a return to the old days
    _____________________________

    Quote Originally Posted by Danae View Post
    [00:07:39] the other guys are the tech wizards, i just find things :P i'm like google with boobs!
    Sig stolen from nEo-1664 + Danae I guess

  8. #8
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
    Tonight, we held a brain storming session on Discord regarding the difficulties that new players have upon joining the game (and some other things that will go in other posts).

    Overview:

    The main agreement appears to be the current grinding, and lack of information available to new players. On top of this, the cost of equipment, and quality of missions.

    Suggested resolutions (or notes) are listed below the issue, and are marked with a > at the start of the sentence.


    Starting a new character

    • Starting equipment
      New characters start with items which are not necessary to their 'class'.
      Starting weapons for Droners, PPU and Soldiers are currently underpowered. Soul Cluster doesn't always target mobs. Drones do 1 damage a hit, and must be point blank to hit. Soldiers have 2 lots of grenades, which go all over the place, and currently do more damage to the player than a scorpion in the starting area.

      > Reworking starting equipment to ensure a more balanced introduction. Provide all characters only with relevant and useful items.

      > Rework damage for starting equipment to balance it out better, or provide more ammo for indirect fire weapons, which will use more ammo.
    • Starting Skills
      Not all the 'classes' have skills which are useful to them.

      > Rework the suggested starting skills, to prevent redundancies. Keep the option for more experiences players to adjust the suggested starting skills.
    • Highlight difficult classes
      Things like Hacker and PPU require more advanced understanding of the game.

      > Rate classes from Easy (soldier/PE) to Hard (PPU, Hacker).
    • Some factions are more advanced than others
      TG, TH and CM are more difficult to begin in and could be isolating for new players.

      > Mark them as Hard, or Advanced, so that players know what they can expect.



    Lack of new player information

    Although we currently have the /help channel to allow runners to ask questions - it would be helpful to proactively provide information to them.

    • Citycom Tutorials - Adding a series of short reference tutorials to the Citycom would allow players to look up advice on things like buying equipment, where to level, how to do quests (etc.). If we could have an in-game browser, this would allow a Wiki added to the game, with all relevant material covered.
    • Video Tutorials - A series of short tutorials, hosted through YouTube, and which can be played within the game would be a brilliant source of information for players. If an in-game browser was added, this could also provide a platform for imbedding the videos.



    MC5 Area


    • Quests - Currently the signposts to the first of the newbie quests is not obvious enough.

      > Have it so that characters start with the quest to speak with the first NPC, so that he appears on their Nav when they first leave the Cryo Facility.
    • Equipment Costs - Items within the newbie area are too expensive.

      > The research mission asks you to purchase items which can cost thousands of credits.

      > I found last time that the requested weapon was 5.5K - this mean grinding mobs to buy the weapon, then grinding more to afford the GR to my apartment.

      > The GR shouldn't charge to take players to their first apartment to avoid players getting 'stuck' in MC5 and having to grind.
    • Equipment Relevance - There are items on the first vendors which just aren't relevant, such as ammo for WoC weapons.

      > Create a new list of newbie specific item groups, with subsidised pricing, to ease players into the game.

      I started a PPU and knew to put points into Rifle so I could actually kill things, since Soul Cluster is broken - how many newbies would think they'd have to do that right off the bat?
    • Healing, armour, recycling - levelling is basically horrible until you get these three things.

      > Players should be provided a full set of armour, a TL3 heal or equivalent and a recycling tool, plus the skills required to use them, by the time they leave MC5. This will allow them to focus their funds and effort on levelling, rather than hunting these items - IF they even know about them and their benefit in the first place.



    Levelling
    • Grind (levelling) - Other than MC5 missions and EPICs, there is not much more than grinding in the way of levelling up a character.

      > Introduce a series of mini-quests, which can be started in popular areas such as Plaza 1. These are arranged similarly to EPICs, in that they will require players to complete several tasks around the city, and grant decent items (allow players to choose from a list to cater for unusual setups) and large XP rewards for their completion. Either mark the missions on the map, or have the NPC contact the player to let them know where they can find the content.

      > Up the XP gain. The main aim of the game is PVP. It was speculated that the grind should be shortened to allow players to begin end-game content quicker.
    • Cash - if XP is raised, it could mean that players are unable to afford new items to keep up with the pace of their levelling.

      > Credits are mostly irrelevant towards end-game, with most items now bartered with tech parts. Up the credits reward for all missions, except research, to allow players to have a cash flow that will balance with their levelling rate.
    • Too many players relying on a limited number of spots to level us. Let's face it - drone/grenade launcher + El Farid = levelling. Sure, some players don't, but the overwhelming majority do. And it makes the ones that do it without an LE a very easy target.

      > There's a lot of unused space out in the wastes that could accommodate levelling areas. The main thing that makes EF so convenient is the fact that the Queen spawns Big Scorpions, that spawn little Scorpions in turn. This makes for quick spawn rates, quick XP, and quick money - all in a limited sized area. Introduce more areas with this general mechanic perhaps? Providing more areas will allow players the opportunity to scout out their own favourites.
    • Levelling spot ganking. Log out in the levelling zone. Kill anyone without an LE. Log out in the zone to avoid repercussions. Too easy. Soul Light too low? Just idle somewhere until it regenerates.

      > Introduce an elevated loss of soul light for ganking in levelling areas. Currently, having high Soul Light incurs a lower penalty for killing than having a low Soul Light, so players bag a couple of kills and idle in Plaza till they have high Soul Light and don't drop items in their belt as easily/their belt is harder to hack if they're caught. Make it a BIG penalty for killing in a levelling spot, and the occurrence will drop, as players are more worried about dropping their stuff.



    LE and PVP
    • LEs are counter-productive for the game. This is a PVP game, and there's not a big enough incentive to remove an LE.

      > Player XP should cap at around /45. This will allow a player to complete their Epic missions before getting into the main content. Once they get to /45, the XP should cap, and they cannot carry on gaining until they remove their LE.

      > Alternatively, LEs should not work outside of the city. There are sufficient levelling areas to avoid contact with other players in the wastelands. Quoting: "If you are a trader and want to sit in an outpost to get the bonus you shouldn’t be unkillable". It IS a Warzone, after all.
    • Dropping items in belts. Currently, if a low-level player removes their LE and is PKed, they can potentially lose an item that is integral to their development. Conversely, the chances that this item is worth taking for the PKer is low. With this in mind, you have a situation where the PKed player could potentially just be demoralised to the point of quitting, for the sake of the PKer gaining a few thousand credits at Yo’s.

      > Players under /45 don't drop items in belts. By /45 they should have had time to learn the game, and stand a better chance of escaping an attack.
    • Benefits of a clan are not explained. Clans are, for the most part, very important in NC. They provide protection, and a way to crowdsource resources. Any item lost in a dropped belt is likely easily replaced if in a clan, meaning losses are minimal.

      > More advertising of the benefits of clans, and how they outweigh getting PKed is required. In-game posters could be a nice way of doing this, as well as an article in the above-mentioned tutorials.
    Bumping for Bifrost, following a discussion today.

  9. #9
    Xpertz William Antrim's Avatar
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    You know what would go a long way towards improving the new player experience?

    One - write a guide with up to date information on how to do stuff and host it on TH.org.

    Two - put a splash screen into the game at account creation saying - this game is really old so dont expect AAA standards but if you have any questions go to this site and link to TH.org or here.
    "dulce et decorum est pro patria mori"

  10. #10

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    Play like its 1999?
    Zoltan
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    »I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if hundreds of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.« - server crash

    DOWNLOAD NEOCRONPLAY NEOCRONFACEBOOKTWITTERDISCORDGET SUPPORTFORUM RULESRULES OF CONDUCT​​

  11. #11
    Xpertz William Antrim's Avatar
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    Yes basically. Making suggestions which take up hundreds of man hours is all well and good but someone has to implement them. With the speed of development in this game I dont see those suggestions coming to fruition before the end of the decade in all honesty. You've spent 3-4 years on the balancing project. Entire game series have come and gone since then.

    If you want to improve things then you need to go back to basics and make the simplest easiest changes possible and let the game play to its strengths, not apologise for its weaknesses.
    "dulce et decorum est pro patria mori"

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