1. #16
    T.G.M Second in Command phunqe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William Antrim View Post
    Changing the mechanics of the LE just because you got ganked makes me think the problem is with the victim, not the mechanic.

    Its a pvp game, that means pvp at all levels not just capped players in duels. Just like in life there are assholes everywhere in nc.


    If you cant look after your noobs then your clan has failed tbh. There is no issue with the LE. Why cant the noobs just "join" your clan on TS and chat to one another and get to know each other and take part in your activities without wearing your tag? What purpose or physical benefit is there to joining your clan? do you let them in the clan appt for example?

    I fail to see why the LE mechanic should be changed just because you want to recruit people who dont like to be killed at low level? If players leave the game when they have been pked does the game want/need them anyway? This game is harsh on its players in one respect but thats the nature of the game - if players are gonna quit after getting killed once then they arent the kind of people the community wants and needs. I dont want this to sound unfairly harsh but this game (played without an LE in) is a cold cyberpunk world. It is not pink and fluffy. The thrill of getting the kill for one person ALWAYS has the consequence of being killed for someone else.

    To remove the LE means that you "consent", for lack of a better way of putting it, to getting GR camped, having your corpse sexed and potentially losing weapons/items/boots in a quick belt at WHATEVER level you choose to remove it at. That is the game.


    Please don't change it just because some noobs got killed.
    Unless you are saying that you take in all noobs that want to join you clan and grant them protection, stating "if you cannot look after your noobs" is a bit misleading.

    We are not talking about clans being lazy here, we are talking about random noob friends coming together and forming a clan from the beginning. You can't expect new players to be able to protect themselves against nc griefers and if none of the established clans protects them, then they obviously quit after repetitive grieving.

    However, being able to form clans to at least have that social component in place would help to keep people in the game.
    You can add further restrictions, for example if you have one LEd person in the clan you cannot own an outpost. Or take it even further and say that you either need all with LE or all without. The latter would take care of the "clans being lazy" argument.

    Actually LEd only clans would be an idea, it can fit from a role playing perspective as well.

  2. #17
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    Some LEed players are allready on TS and doing their thing together.
    Giving them LE-Clans adds to their fun.

    To solve this LE issue there needs to be two separate ruleset servers as I suggested above.

    1. Non-consensual PvP-Server for the hardcore PvP people
    - there is no LE at all, all runners start without LE
    - rest, same as the current Titan

    2. Consensual PvP-Server for the softcore PvP people
    - there is no LE at all, all runners start without LE
    - other players can't be attacked
    - Exception to the rule: Clans who own OPs can be temporarily declared war on, they can kill each other on sight during war.
    - Duels in Neofrag

    Now the fun part:
    This should have been done 14 years ago.

    Give people choice!
    Last edited by Sophie; 25-11-16 at 16:11.
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  3. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by William Antrim View Post
    Changing the mechanics of the LE just because you got ganked makes me think the problem is with the victim, not the mechanic.

    Its a pvp game, that means pvp at all levels not just capped players in duels. Just like in life there are assholes everywhere in nc.


    If you cant look after your noobs then your clan has failed tbh. There is no issue with the LE. Why cant the noobs just "join" your clan on TS and chat to one another and get to know each other and take part in your activities without wearing your tag? What purpose or physical benefit is there to joining your clan? do you let them in the clan appt for example?

    I fail to see why the LE mechanic should be changed just because you want to recruit people who dont like to be killed at low level? If players leave the game when they have been pked does the game want/need them anyway? This game is harsh on its players in one respect but thats the nature of the game - if players are gonna quit after getting killed once then they arent the kind of people the community wants and needs. I dont want this to sound unfairly harsh but this game (played without an LE in) is a cold cyberpunk world. It is not pink and fluffy. The thrill of getting the kill for one person ALWAYS has the consequence of being killed for someone else.

    To remove the LE means that you "consent", for lack of a better way of putting it, to getting GR camped, having your corpse sexed and potentially losing weapons/items/boots in a quick belt at WHATEVER level you choose to remove it at. That is the game.


    Please don't change it just because some noobs got killed.
    Thumbs up for this one! Although I also agree that LE-only clans with heavy (!) restrictions may be interesting for new players.

    But hell... do not open a second server!!! This will only lead to another split of the community and imbalance regarding LE'd and Non-LE'd, noobs and experienced players or fighters and traders. Worst idea ever...

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by scientit/Bamboo View Post
    Thumbs up for this one! Although I also agree that LE-only clans with heavy (!) restrictions may be interesting for new players.

    But hell... do not open a second server!!! This will only lead to another split of the community and imbalance regarding LE'd and Non-LE'd, noobs and experienced players or fighters and traders. Worst idea ever...
    Did you read what I have written?

    Yes, now the split is problematic due to small community.

    But you can wait forever and the problem persists, or do something about it.


    Therefore as an interim solution, I would suggest to remove all XP/Credit restricitons from LE and make LE-Clans available.

    It is still unacceptable that LE-people have to sacrifice a brain slot, but they have to live with that currently.
    NC3 kommt!

  5. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sophie View Post
    It is still unacceptable that LE-people have to sacrifice a brain slot, but they have to live with that currently.
    Playing devils advocate for a moment...

    Why do you believe it to be unacceptable? The Law Enforcer theoretically gives the strongest buff in the game...
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  6. #21
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    In my NC world there is no need for a LE.

    See my vision about the two ruleset servers.
    https://forum.neocron-game.com/showt...=1#post2236932


    Therefore the LE is a penalty and not a buff.

    I suggested an "interim" solution, because there are currently no alternatives available.

    No choice.
    Last edited by Sophie; 25-11-16 at 20:37.
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  7. #22
    God of the Crahnsect LeoPump's Avatar
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    2 Server? No, thanks.

    Option a) play with LE, nobody can kill/gank you- you're happy as a trader or RPler
    Option b) play without, there is a chance someone will kill or gank you.

    I do agree that LE Player have restrictions, like a Clan-join, but the brainslot? Really?
    I would suggest to let them join a clan, but not hold an outpost.
    "Ich bin für klare Hierarchien. Gott hat ja auch nicht zu Moses gesagt: "Hier Moses, ich hab' da mal was aufgeschrieben, was mir nicht so gefällt. Falls du Lust hast schau' doch da mal drüber." Nein, da hieß es: Zack, 10 Gebote! Und wer nicht pariert kommt in die Hölle. Bums, aus, Nikolaus." (Stromberg)

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sophie View Post
    In my NC world there is no need for a LE.

    See my vision about the two ruleset servers.
    https://forum.neocron-game.com/showt...=1#post2236932


    Therefore the LE is a penalty and not a buff.

    I suggested an "interim" solution, because there are currently no alternatives available.

    No choice.
    I'd love to see LEs disabled on Titan and a new non-PVP server added. They could even ninja each others OPs and form clans, just never attack each other. I love it. Hell, let them transfer characters there from Titan. Get the LE players away from me.

    I hate LEs and think they ruin the game for the players that use them. I want to play on a server where all players, including noobs, must work together to survive, watch their backs, level in unconventional spots, etc.
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sophie View Post
    To solve this LE issue there needs to be two separate ruleset servers as I suggested above.

    1. Non-consensual PvP-Server for the hardcore PvP people


    2. Consensual PvP-Server for the softcore PvP people
    I don't feel that this is the solution at all and I couldn't disagree more.

    As a player who enjoys PVP, I don't have a problem with allowing LE's to join a clan, but if this was available in game there should be heavy restrictions in place for those runners, this is a PVP game, we want to encourage players to remove the LE after all.

    Managing how the LE's work would then still keep them safe at low level, noobie bashing could easily be managed within known levelling area's, but the further they move into the wastelands, the bigger risk the runner should take.

    Why should the LE work in wasteland zones or war zones? Why do players have to put up with LE runners camping levelling area's and MC5, if a non LE clan or group was in an area you wanted access to, you would either kill them or force them out with threats, you can't do that to LE players.
    I know I sound un-sportsman like, but this is Neocron, it's a hard life, there are factions and clans with their own interests and agenda's, people get murdered for the limited resources available, its human nature and this really shows in the wastelands.

    Add area's of interest such as MB, certain zones near or around Neocron and dotted around the waste land that could be considered Neocron monitored zones, shove some storm bots in place and a wireless antenna, hey presto the LE works and it all fits within game cannon.

    So this fixes, new players not able to join a clan and low level players being ganked in leveling area's that want to be part of a clan.

    LE players are not safe in area's they have IMO no business being in, added risk vs reward incentive etc.

  10. #25
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    I challange the asumption this is a PvP game.
    I say it is PvE game with a PvP component.

    Your demands hampers my PvE experience.

    Now, who is right?

    My suggestions don't exclude people who like the crule harsh world, see server option "1".

    I repeat myself: Punishment is no encuragement!
    Last edited by Sophie; 26-11-16 at 00:14.
    NC3 kommt!

  11. #26

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    It doesn't have to be extreme either side. True PvPer or your a Carebear. I can tell you I hate the xp malice, it's already a painful grind! Especially when you need multiple classes and specialities. Wiith the state of the majority of leveling place makes it even worse... not to mention drones. It was painstaking before; now nearly intolerable. Just getting setup to level takes time. Maybe it's just me but I can't play NC for 6+hrs a day anymore. Call me a Carebear but when I'm leveling and some dbag comes in and pk's me when I'm half their level and I'm already engaged with a mob and I have to start all over getting ready to level, pokes, gr, etc. it's not what I call enjoyable and makes me turn the game off. If I am a minority and you feel expendable fine. I guess my profile is an acceptable loss. But look up my game accounts and see my first register date and my previous play patterns. There are few that have been here longer, at least US players. Keep it 'hardcore' as you define it and you will once again have 5 people online.

    I don't care about joining a clan, although it would be nice, but either take away the degree of xp malice or fix the capped dbags ganking newbs of friendly factions... just my opinion.

    And yes I remember how it use to be... bounties and all. It's different when you have hundreds on the server and multiple servers. We just got a surge up to about 140 at peak and it's already dwindling... keep doing the same things and expect different results... see where it gets you. And I'm not directing this mainly to the devs.. you players need to re-evaluate as well.

    There are few who care about NC more than me. I only want the best for its longevity. And I appreciate all the nst does, thank you sincerely for keeping it around.
    Last edited by hudsonbeck; 26-11-16 at 02:59.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sophie View Post

    My suggestions don't exclude people who like the crule harsh world, see server option "1".

    I repeat myself: Punishment is no encuragement!
    Separating an already small community is not going to make things any better, it's not about being a PVP'er or carebear at this stage, it's about finding the right balance to make hardcore players keep coming back and allow non PVP players to enjoy the game as they decide to play it. LE runners already have a big advantage over non LE players, yes there is a degree of malice, but LE runners don't drop belts, nor do they have to keep looking over their shoulders when leveling in known ganking areas.

    You get a group of LE's and you can run MC5 all day without worry, big deal you lose a head implant, seeing as you won't worry about PVP then don't worry about a PPR or whichever alternative PVP chip you would use.

    You can camp anywhere you like, go AFK in pepper park, you are in god mode providing there are no mobs about to kill you.

    Yes you can't join a clan, does it matter ? It's not like fixing up your apartment storage is an issue from all the credits you can potentially make from selling techs without worry of being ganked while farming them.

    PVE has never been one of Neocron's strong points, but in PVP we have so many different ways to kill each other, territory to fight over and belts to hack from your foes. Yes you can use the same weapons to kill mobs, but its just not the same...
    More PVE content would be nice, and as I've mentioned so many times missions to give XP and rewards or leveling players would be really good, why stop at an epic run? There should be a plethora of missions with branching story lines.. but understandably with the limited resources the Dev team have this sort of thing will take time to evolve.

    Of course you can go trophy hunting in the wastes if you like collecting crap, but there are much more interesting PVE games out there with much bigger rewards.

    It's a 14 year old game that keeps me coming back, it's full of people I like and people I hate, it's the one game when someone kills you, you take it personally and you demand retribution in blood, no other MMO or game has made me so angry or laugh so much.

    Again I repeat, separating the community is not the way forward, giving positive idea's to the Dev team is however something we should all be doing, I hope they read threads like these and take on board what we all say and make the game evolve into something it could never do under KK.

    Peace out,

  13. #28
    freedom for neocron! Torg's Avatar
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    i would happily trade the LE game mechanic for other means to prevent unconsented kills.

    what about a serious SL and fac symp drop for killing an allied or neutral (i.e. -200 SL and FS for killing a lower level ally and - 100 for a neutral)? so severe a drop it would take you weeks to work your way back into not getting shot at by copbots, faction guards and shop personnel alike, more or less all NPCs but the dedicated criminal ones at the OZ jail? at least battles zone (there are plenty of) will give no penalties for killing, right? of course, this would end all happy plaza 2 or pepper park fighting outside the lines of faction relations. but also remove the need for an LE quite a lot.

    what about putting up 2 servers: both without LE, each one with and without PvP killing? What do you think: Will the servers be populated equally, or will the PVP server be deserted without all the people wanting to 'just play the game'? (we've already tried that in the past, to known results)

    playing as a team or group while LE'd is not so difficult. you don't need the clan chat as you have a buddy list, and you could as well meet up in a runner apartment. so i'd vote against LE clans, but stricter penalty rules, like described above.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torg View Post
    i would happily trade the LE game mechanic for other means to prevent unconsented kills.

    what about a serious SL and fac symp drop for killing an allied or neutral (i.e. -200 SL and FS for killing a lower level ally and - 100 for a neutral)? so severe a drop it would take you weeks to work your way back into not getting shot at by copbots, faction guards and shop personnel alike, more or less all NPCs but the dedicated criminal ones at the OZ jail? at least battles zone (there are plenty of) will give no penalties for killing, right? of course, this would end all happy plaza 2 or pepper park fighting outside the lines of faction relations. but also remove the need for an LE quite a lot.
    The only problem with this sort of thing is that it leaves things open to griefing, imagine you are fighting an enemy player and a 0/2 green runs in between you and dies, you are going to take a serious penalty through no fault of your own.

    Or you fire an AOE weapon to try and kill a stealther but accidently kill a friendly runner in the crossfire.

    Remember when you could kill Yo's NPC's in an outpost? You'd lose a shed load of SL and faction symp, so what seems like a good idea could easily turn into something that could ruin the game.

    I have regular skirmishes in Pepper Park or in the wastes, sometimes against allied of neutral runners, it happens and I am aware of the risks involved, sometimes I will try and avoid the fight and get away, sometimes you just have to deal with it and kill a player, as the game is so open ended it's very difficult to police this sort of thing and unfair to be punished for self defence.

  15. #30
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    I do agree DIS, that currently a separation would be risky. (and a missing game mechanic)
    Thats why I suggested the "interim" solution.

    All PvE activities, you describe, LE runners allready do will not change with my suggestion.

    LE-Clans can't occupy Outposts, thats an advantage only for non-LE players, no Money from OP, not max RES, CST, aso. bonus.
    LE runners missing one brain slot, again still an advantage for non-LE players.
    LE runners can't hack belts and take the loot, again an advantage for non-LE players.

    PvE is one of Neocron strong points, leveling, part hunting, MC5, Doy-Tunnels and doing trade skills.
    A lot of people seem to enjoy this.

    non-LE players choose deliberately - more or less - to get enjoyment out of killing and being killed.
    It is part of their fun, it is no punishment or drawback.

    So why can't we remove the XP/credit malus and give LE-players clans adding to the fun of LE-Players?
    NC3 kommt!

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