1. #1

    Default Your input on: Wisdom of Ceres (long term)

    This is a general discussion about the Wisdom of Ceres (WoC) system as a whole that might be implemented regardless of current game assets, coding restrictions or previous game lore.

    Let's split this down into a few sections - Game Lore, Attaining WoC and WoC implementation.


    Game Lore

    What exactly is WoC?
    The Wisdom of Ceres Disks were a pre-war data repository that where rediscovered allowed the post-war tribes to reach a technological level in far shorter a peroid of time than normal. Given that by the game's own history, this knowledge has been added to and indeed surpassed, what is the 'Wisdom of Ceres' a character purportedly attains?
    Currently your character simply gains more 'normal' xp and then talks to a monk that 'awakens' something in them that allows them to use a few guns and armour pieces.
    An odd part is the disks themselves. Why do the monks need them and why are they in the labs to begin with? In the lore, the contents were made public after the Ceres Wars and in old PA mission, the contents where housed by CA. What are these labs for and who put them there. It's a haphazard and clearly rushed bandaid.

    Is WoC simply a greater degree of experience/skill refinement or something else, Eg. the original Psi monks were arguably more powerful than they are now due to population dilution, so does almost anyone have unlocked abilities? Maybe that could simply extend to physical skills - given the technology of the game world (implants, the GR system, etc.), characters can experience and practice much more than we can in our lifetimes.
    Should we even be calling it WoC at all?


    Attaining WoC

    Following on from what WoC is, we than come to how that is then expressed as the mechanism for activating it on your character.
    As mentioned above, the odd disk system only adds grind or expense on top of the existing grind.

    How about an epic-style mission that explores what WoC (or whatever we call it) is and how your character goes about learning what it is and how to use it?
    Keep the secret club Ceres monk side of things, make it a personal journey of discovery or a wider known degree of experience.

    Then, as with the other thread, we have the debate over XP requirements.


    WoC implementation

    Currently WoC is a item requirement, limited to weapons and PAs. There is a lot more you can do with that system as there are more item types and as many new items as you can think of.
    But if we're thinking outside of the box, what else could it do?

    Many RPGs (as in, most of those I can name), on top of their base stats and skills have specific abilities; DnD has a multitude of additional skills, like Quivering Palm and Whirlwind, Fallout and Skyrim have Perks, etc.
    Could WoC be something similar?
    Each time a WoC level is gained, you get a point to spend on a WoC skill.
    Eg.
    Item Use - Each point spent allows the use of WoC items of equal or lower WoC requirement (current system).
    Thunder Thighs - Half jump height, half fall dmg?
    Dual Wield - Purely cosmetic or longer clip and longer reload?
    Glass Cannon - Permanent -20 HLT and +20 ATH/AGL?
    And so on.

    Do we also have to have separate WoC levels for each main stat? Why not gain a point/level at a sum total of xp to be spent where we like (with possible class/main- and/or sub-skill reqs)?

    Get thinking!
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  2. #2

    Thumbs up Right on time to talk about WoC :)

    Here is my input on what I'd like in the long term... Followed by a TL;DR for lazy people.

    What would WoC provide:
    Considering the lore of the Ceres disc providing us with long forgotten and lost knowledge of technology, I'm glad we can get access to high end top tier gear which is equel in TL power to similar TL rare weapons/PA. Tho each providing a different gameplay because this old technology didn't made itself in the same society, so their goal was different, hence different resulting weapons/PA.

    To this we could add unique implants (like you mentionned kamikaze) and hybrid Psi implants/PA to give a different appraoch to PSI. I'm sure people would love it.

    Tho I picture this new knowledge as blueprints which the most skilled crafters could construct. Not physical skills that would allow you to perform a double jump. The skill system should have its limits. And I'd love it if we could stick with a technological aspect and not bring in a skill/perk aspect.


    How to Obtain WoC:
    To be honest I think the current xp system is not fun. It go against the lore, let me elaborate:
    If we consider the RP that skills represent our character development, then reaching cap (100 STR/DEX/etc) should be considered mastering its class. Therefor we shouldn't xp further than that. I'd like to see WoC as a side technology and not an improvement of skill mastery.

    How about instead, we do a hard quest, where you have to seeks fragments of Ceres disc and put it together (the process would be long and tedious, just like the DoY mission to get IAR 47 and SWAT) and then you would seek the WoC scientists and gain knownledge on how to properly use this exotic gear.

    Relating WoC to an attributes is imho not necessary, skill restriction will do that instead, no need to add an other restriction and more confusion to the whole concept.

    Please let's move out from this horrible game design of requiring HUGE amount of xp to get woc levels. I am patient, I have been playing NC for MANY years but I'm not going to spend thousands of hours droning a PE to get woc extra level to get extra skill points to dual wield. Neocron is awesome because of its realism in this virtual world, the amount of customising and private assets, the diversity of weapons, environement, the freedom and the player driven economy but certainly not for it's xp grinding.

    There is a big diffrence in between farming rare parts and farming woc xp. With rare parts, you get the human aspect of trading, you get to stock your loots and see it grow. As for WoC, you run in circle shooting a regant boss, for hundreads of time making you feel dizzy and asking yourself why you even go through such pain. That is for WoC 1 now imagine WoC 5. I'm not even mentionning droning.


    TL;DR:
    I would love to see in the longterm:
    +Add more WoC Weapons for tank
    +Add WoC Implants
    +Add WoC Implants to allow hybrids monk instead of WoC Spells
    +Add series of difficult quest requiring group effort to obtain Wisdom of Ceres
    -Remove Xp Requirments (quest instead)
    -Remove WoC attributes (the normal skill is a restriction by itself)
    =WoC is a side technology offering differnt gameplay
    =WoC is an adventure which you will start after getting capped that will drive you throughout the world of NC and discover all unseen places.

  3. #3

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    I grinded my ass off to get WoC as a melee GenTank. The grind was steep but it was satisfying once I got it.

    But can I get a WoC power armor to buff melee stats? I know I've consistently pestered about the lack of a WoC melee weapon (which I'd like to see as well, as a larger and more powerful 2 handed version of the Devil's Grace), but I imagine implementing a PA that gives bigger buffs to melee combat would probably be easier. Take a model of the PA, swap the stats to buff melee, and voila.

    I wouldn't worry about overclocking the melee stats either at this point. Zoltan's testing already proved that even the best melee has over 7 times the current TTK as any comparable ranged weapon.

    That's my 2 cents. Thanks for reading.

  4. #4

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    White woc PPU Power Armor with blue trim. That is all I want

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Faid View Post
    White woc PPU Power Armor with blue trim. That is all I want
    That sounds shiny ! Indeed a white WoC would be awesome What about red stripes ? so you really look like an ambulance

  6. #6
    former king of saturn
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    WoC was supposed to be the game changer on the level of Hacknet back in the days if NC1. It was supposed to unlock new potential your character didn't have before.


    It shouldn't be required, but it should reward those who take the time to do it with new builds and gameplay styles. It should be work to obtain, but not a time sink. RL brings me enough of those, and my gaming time is precious... wasting it running in circles in a room with a gfx bug for several gaming sessions is not treating my gaming time appropriately.


    What I'd really like to see out of WoC is more freedom with a character. The beauty of char setups in NC is that there is no "skill tree" which grants both true freedom, as well as the illusion of freedom. WoC could grant the player the ability to move Stat points to build a truly customized character. Want a spy with 50 con? Ok, but you're going to have to steal those 10 points from somewhere else. It should be repeatable (for more customization, or reconfiguration) with a maximum number of reallocated stats. EG: 5 per WoC level, up to WoC 3. Anything beyond WoC 3 will grant the ability to move the Stats again.

    WoC levels beyond 3 should not grow in XP requirements. You shouldn't punish the people who put the most effort in.

  7. #7

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    Good ideas here in general, but I again feel the need to speak up for traders. Currently there is no point in obtaining WoC for traders whatsoever. And in the ideas in this thread this far I too haven't seen anything that would thrill a trader into getting WoC. You praised the player-driven economy, but at the same time do not seem to regard traders as "real players" - just some intelligent NPCs. Granted, the number of those who do nothing but trading is very small, but we are out there.
    Something I could think of would be to obtain blueprints for furniture items for example. More precisely local-area-buff-items for the apartment owner / people on the apartment's whitelist. What I am thinking of is basically an item that grants a bonus similar to Lab or Factory to the trader in question (or a percentage of it).
    The reason is simple: Most traders are independent and it is pointless for them to engage in pvp to obtain a lab or factory. Even if an allied faction happens to hold an outpost they require, most of the time the GRs are locked down to clan only, so again it is of no purpose.

    My proposal would by no means be a game-breaker, but it would add a sorely needed benefit for traders AND it would go in line with the lore about obtaining lost technology from those discs (Such as a nano-factory or an AI-Core for CST and RES)

  8. #8
    Tangent Technologies Morpheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divide View Post
    my gaming time is precious... wasting it running in circles in a room with a gfx bug for several gaming sessions is not treating my gaming time appropriately.
    So true, to older I get.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morekai View Post
    Good ideas here in general, but I again feel the need to speak up for traders. Currently there is no point in obtaining WoC for traders whatsoever. And in the ideas in this thread this far I too haven't seen anything that would thrill a trader into getting WoC. You praised the player-driven economy, but at the same time do not seem to regard traders as "real players" - just some intelligent NPCs. Granted, the number of those who do nothing but trading is very small, but we are out there.
    Something I could think of would be to obtain blueprints for furniture items for example. More precisely local-area-buff-items for the apartment owner / people on the apartment's whitelist. What I am thinking of is basically an item that grants a bonus similar to Lab or Factory to the trader in question (or a percentage of it).
    The reason is simple: Most traders are independent and it is pointless for them to engage in pvp to obtain a lab or factory. Even if an allied faction happens to hold an outpost they require, most of the time the GRs are locked down to clan only, so again it is of no purpose.

    My proposal would by no means be a game-breaker, but it would add a sorely needed benefit for traders AND it would go in line with the lore about obtaining lost technology from those discs (Such as a nano-factory or an AI-Core for CST and RES)
    That's a very good idea morekai !
    I highly support this.

  10. #10
    freedom for neocron! Torg's Avatar
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    iirc that "Wisdom Of Ceres" thing was introduced by KK as an attempt to create additional content: things you could do after capping your char. it's a known problem of all RPG games: once you're capped, the game is more or less over.

    WoC was made to get you improvements to your char that turned out to be valuable in PvP, to some char classes at least. in fact WoC is an expansion to the basic skillpoint/ranking system: you keep gaining exp and thus are able to reach a higher level. think of WoC 1 being DEX, STR or PSI 110, WoC 2 as a 120ish rank etc. just keep getting exp, as a way of playing the game (among other). we need to remember that WoC is an unfinished project, KK died before really using the opportunities of the WoC system.

    luckily or not, NC has the option to do PvP in ways totally unrelated to all the role playing, character developing, world exploring and item gathering you can spend your leisure time on. while WoC wasn't initially meant to be a requirement for PvP, but plain additional content, it is in fact much more than just access to a few more weapons. these WoC weapons can only be slightly more powerful than "rare" weapons to keep the balance alive, btw.

    so what if WoC 1 was the requirement for using MC5 chips? what if each WoC-level had extra implants for further character customisation? what if WoC-levels were needed to access additional missions (like the WoC-weapons runs)?

    yes, i know that the argument against any exp-point requirements is "senseless grind". true: if you spend nights and weeks in el farid, chaos cave or regants, just to gather exp this feels like grinding. the answer here is: dont do it. go hunting different mobs. to encourage this i got a proposal: add mob-specific items to the loot table as a requirement for WoC. something like 30 Warbot scraps, 30 firestones (drop from 100ish and stronger firemobs), 30 reptile bones (from brutes and terrors), 30 hover batteries (from hover bots), 30 Y-replicant chips, 30 poison cave glands (cave gliders or cave snakes), 30 regants crawler eyes etc etc, all mobs of 80/80 and up. like 300 parts per WoC-level (so they need to be light-weighted). this would require some work from our Devs (more graphic arts than coding) and some readjusting of expectations among the community.

    if you're expecting to play your preferred part of the game effortless (be it crafting, roleplying or PvP), you will be out of luck in this cruel, cold and post-apocalyptic world of Neocron. giving it some considerable effort is part of the game. what my proposition says is: make it feel more coherent, take away the appearance of grinding, send players into the open world for using all its resources instead of just one: exp.

    stop exp points being the single valuable resource to gather in Neocron.

    on second thought: lower the exp requirement for WoC. a lot. and add a loot stuff requirement, as above.
    Last edited by Torg; 13-09-15 at 13:14.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Torg View Post
    [...]

    so what if WoC 1 was the requirement for using MC5 chips? what if each WoC-level had extra implants for further character customisation? what if WoC-levels were needed to access additional missions (like the WoC-weapons runs)?

    yes, i know that the argument against any exp-point requirements is "senseless grind". true: if you spend nights and weeks in el farid, chaos cave or regants, just to gather exp this feels like grinding. the answer here is: dont do it. go hunting different mobs. to encourage this i got a proposal: add mob-specific items to the loot table as a requirement for WoC. something like 30 Warbot scraps, 30 firestones (drop from 100ish and stronger firemobs), 30 reptile bones (from brutes and terrors), 30 hover batteries (from hover bots), 30 Y-replicant chips, 30 poison cave glands (cave gliders or cave snakes), 30 regants crawler eyes etc etc, all mobs of 80/80 and up. like 300 parts per WoC-level (so they need to be light-weighted). this would require some work from our Devs (more graphic arts than coding) and some readjusting of expectations among the community.

    if you're expecting to play your preferred part of the game effortless (be it crafting, roleplying or PvP), you will be out of luck in this cruel, cold and post-apocalyptic world of Neocron. giving it some considerable effort is part of the game. what my proposition says is: make it feel more coherent, take away the appearance of grinding, send players into the open world for using all its resources instead of just one: exp.

    stop exp points being the single valuable resource to gather in Neocron.

    on second thought: lower the exp requirement for WoC. a lot. and add a loot stuff requirement, as above.
    linking MC5 chips to woc is not a good idea in my opinion. They are already ridiculously overpriced and with woc as another requirement I don't see much reason to use them anyway - particularly for players who do not have as steep an exp-curve as combat chars do. meaning supporters and traders. Both would take ages to hit woc.



    as for the item requirement for woc, as much as i consider it a good idea in general i again see some classes at a severe disadvantage, because both are going to have severe problems killing the mobs in question. (traders and supporters again) for regular combat characters it might not be a problem, but for those smaller groups it would be a massive problem - as is the xp-barrier for the most part. we need to find a way which does not effectively exclude those groups from getting woc - and also need to make it reasonable for them to get it in the first place. Because right now woc is only something for combat-chars. The others are effectively excluded from "endgame content"

  12. #12

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    Grinding Warbots and Firemobs and Hoverbots on my melee tank doesn't sound fun. At all.

    Game needs more to do with fewer prerequisites to do it, not the other way around.

  13. #13

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    How would you like to see a series of hard to beat quests to obtain Wisdom of Ceres ? Instead of xp requirements ?

    Quest that would force players into making a group and also travel around and visit Doy, Worm tunnels, etc.

    A combat quest where you would have to gather items dropped by end game mob (firemob, chaos, worm tunnels, etc.) and a tradeskiller quest maybe ? Such as the Fallen Angel Epic Quest which involves several tradeskills and a bit of travelling but no combat.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fremen View Post
    [...]

    A combat quest where you would have to gather items dropped by end game mob (firemob, chaos, worm tunnels, etc.) and a tradeskiller quest maybe ? Such as the Fallen Angel Epic Quest which involves several tradeskills and a bit of travelling but no combat.
    This sounds like an awesome idea. If we could combine this with my earlier idea about the buff-furniture we would have a valid reason for tradeskillers to get WoC

  15. #15
    Teh won and ownly! Arcaine's Avatar
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    How to implement WoC ?

    I would like to have a long journey, specific made for my kind of Character.(e.g. an Assasination questline as Rifle Spy/PE, or a deep jump into the visions of Crahn as Monk) with a crossing part, where all Characters are gathered to continue the journey as a team.

    A questline, which tells the Story of WoC and the influence it had and will have in the future.
    Mixed up by several fightings against special bosses and monsters, gathering ancient and forgotten Materials and Items to build the first WoC specific Equip, which is needed to complete the following missions.
    The game has a bunch of unused areas, that can be turned into something special and useful.

    WoC-Skills are a nice idea, something like special construction Skills to build WoC stuff from parts, that can only be gathered from ppl with other WoC skills, like ancient system knowledge to hack older computer systems and so on.

    Just a few idea of skills and usages:
    -Construction - add specific Stats when constructing equipment, Construction of special items
    -Hacking - remotehacking from a short distance, able to interrupt drone controls for a short time
    -Dual Wield for Pistoleros, combining more Damage-Modifiers and more Ammo at the cost of longer reload and a loss in Accuracy
    -Focussed Aim for Snipers to cause several effects with a single, well-placed shot ...e.g. slowed by legshot, losing accuracy by hitting arm or torso, causing visual interference by headshots.
    -Stealthshot for Spy/PE to Attack from stealthed for 3-4 hits until become unstealthed
    -Berserk for Melee Chars, gaining increased Attackspeed and Damage, less consume of Stamina by reducing HLT and AGL for a certain Amount
    -Overload for Heavy Area Weapons to charge them up to triple damage and a higher area of effect by causing overheat ( no weapon usage for a short moment) and a higher durability loss
    etc.

    And for the sake of Go...eh Crahn... Laptops, Mobiles and so on were invented in the 90s ...so implement a portable device to access the network ^^
    I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
    Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.
    I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
    All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain...
    Time to die.

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