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  1. #91
    God of the Crahnsect LeoPump's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OLD No.7 BrAnD View Post
    Don't like the new drugs at all tbh. Now you get a double/(triple) restriction by drugflash and minus stats (and rezz/downtime). Most of them do not represent a special value, very few can be of use with certain setups, but nothing great at all (costs are exponentially higher than benefits). Maybe you should rethink the way you approach the whole thing, or at least which stats they reduce, because right now you could have taken them out of the game and it will have pretty much the same effect...none uses them. But i think i pointed out my opinion in several posts before.
    This!
    Don't destroy drugs!

    kkthxbye
    "Ich bin für klare Hierarchien. Gott hat ja auch nicht zu Moses gesagt: "Hier Moses, ich hab' da mal was aufgeschrieben, was mir nicht so gefällt. Falls du Lust hast schau' doch da mal drüber." Nein, da hieß es: Zack, 10 Gebote! Und wer nicht pariert kommt in die Hölle. Bums, aus, Nikolaus." (Stromberg)

  2. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by OLD No.7 BrAnD View Post
    Don't like the new drugs at all tbh. Now you get a double/(triple) restriction by drugflash and minus stats (and rezz/downtime). Most of them do not represent a special value, very few can be of use with certain setups, but nothing great at all (costs are exponentially higher than benefits). Maybe you should rethink the way you approach the whole thing, or at least which stats they reduce, because right now you could have taken them out of the game and it will have pretty much the same effect...none uses them. But i think i pointed out my opinion in several posts before.
    Yepp.. Dont waste time on drugs if you destroy the purpose of using drugs...
    if ppl are to stupid to play on/without drugs and you listen to 2-3 QQ´s than
    simply remove them...
    BUT PLS DONT WASTE TIME ON THIS FEATURE if you fuck it up anyway...

    #QQDRUGSDESTROYINGPVP

  3. #93
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    Yeah, good idea, Hacki.

    And very rational.

    Cool!

  4. #94

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    First thing:
    Please don't PM me about balancing stuff. I will probably read it but I won't reply. I want to keep everything as public as possible regarding these discussions.
    If you have a particular issue, say it here or start a thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by gstyle40 View Post
    really? ive never had this debate with anyone because anyone who actually pllays all aspects of the game would understand what number one what jack of all trades, master of none actually means.
    I meant it in the wider sense that a JoaT is mildly capable of numerous different things at the same time without it affecting their other abilities.
    A PE uses all their abilities for a single task, be it HC, driving, rifles, etc. but they can't do all of them at the same time. More options yes, but they have to specialise more than the other classes. Spies have more freedom to spec secondary skills as it doesn't affect their primary abilities as much as it would a PE.

    Also, the NC1 manual said Spies have easily developed psi abilities; do you want them to have 60 psi?

    I'd like to mention that (for example) the 'new' Redflash bonuses/negatives are pretty much identical to those in NC1.

    now back on topic....
    Indeed .

    yea bragi, as old no 7 said, and i think i said it also. the negatives completely out weigh the positives at this point and nobody in their right mind would bother with them.
    What about drugs in general is the worst part? Stat negatives, duration, flash, ability to remove flash, etc.?

    If for example, drugs went back to the system where retaking a drug removed flash, regardless of how many times you had done it, would the stat negatives be an issue?
    Are you happy to deal with the current flash system (which seems to only frustrate and break up game play in my opinion) if the stats were different?
    Bragi
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  5. #95
    OWNAGE alive! OLD No.7 BrAnD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bragi View Post
    What about drugs in general is the worst part?
    Nothing was wrong with them!-Tbh i begin to think you don't like them, therefore they have to disappear.
    But, i'll try it one more time:

    1.Fact: None is forced to use drugs!
    2.Fact: You won't win an OP-Fight by using drugs!
    3.Fact: Drugs already restricted the Runner by a flash, ultimately the runner stands/has to die to regain control over the character.
    4.Fact: The time drugs boost you already was restricted.-Although a flash could be delayed, the outcome still is 3.Fact!
    4.Fact: If there are 2 equally skilled runners in a duel, drugs have an influence on the outcome.
    5.Fact: If you have an "extreme" setup, which is depending on drug using, you probably have great(er) weaknesses without them.(e.g. not able to use your stuff etc.)
    -------------------------------------
    Now you come up with the great idea of adding negative stats to drugs. Also you completeley change the bonus stats they provide, unfortionately not only by amount (which would be understandable due to balancing-purposes), but also by the stats itself. So it was already a double fuck-up, and you added another one for a triple fuck-up! (flash/stand or rezz/decreased stats)- Achievement unlocked!
    As i mentioned before that will result in...

    6.Fact: None uses drugs!-Why should anyone be willing to use drugs which do not benefit something useful at all?
    Your only good example was the one drug that gives you AGL and substracts HLT.-What about the others? Most of the stats make zero sense. Can't even compare them to the old ones...

    7.Fact: Paratemol Forte does not decrease any stat! (logic?)
    8.Fact: 3-minute-drugs don't decrease any stat! (logic?)
    9.Fact: Since almost all drugs are shit, you can't delay the flash any longer with another useful drug.
    10.Fact: If you delay the flash you fuck up your character even more. (see 9.Fact)
    11.Fact: Since none uses drugs any longer, there is even less variety in NC.
    -------------------------------------
    Just think about all this one moment. I just don't get it. Why you even made those changes? If you don't want drugs ingame, remove them. Neocron was good with them, drugs did not fuck up things, people did! At some point of the game they were more essential than anything!-Freeze-Halo-time, hoooray, that was fun...not!

    If you want to to extinguish the last bit of variety NC has to offer, please rename the game to Countercron or Neostrike!-But even CS gives you the possibility to use skins. Right now we are restricted to use ugly-coloured PA's which give even more insight about a chars setup. (working outfitter pls)

    I don't want to offend anyone, i'm glad to see what the NST has achieved so far, but those drug changes are just bad. You don't have to justify why you do things like you did, but i would hope you'll explain why you were aiming towards that direction, so maybe me and others can understand.
    Last edited by OLD No.7 BrAnD; 24-07-15 at 20:56.

  6. #96
    God of the Crahnsect LeoPump's Avatar
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    First of all: Drugs on Retail are fine.
    You don't have to use them, but you can - you can optimize/boost your character (like more HLT, AGL, HC, CST etc.).

    As OLD said: Drugs != Plan to Win
    "Ich bin für klare Hierarchien. Gott hat ja auch nicht zu Moses gesagt: "Hier Moses, ich hab' da mal was aufgeschrieben, was mir nicht so gefällt. Falls du Lust hast schau' doch da mal drüber." Nein, da hieß es: Zack, 10 Gebote! Und wer nicht pariert kommt in die Hölle. Bums, aus, Nikolaus." (Stromberg)

  7. #97

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    It's a game, so I consider drugs to be kind of RP. That being said, I think most of the time for me it's kind of a bad trip? 'Hey, let's take a bunch of morphine in the middle of a firefight, what's the worst that can happen?'

    Drugs need serious downsides - not just during the drawback time.

  8. #98

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    Hey Bragi

    Thank you very much for all the hard work!

    The feedback in this thread was quite hard sometimes.

    So let me kick you while you're on the ground :>

    (jokes!!! not the Banhammer, please daddy no!)

    -------------------

    I think the idea you pursue with implants is really great.

    Decide between

    Boost of primary stat (example: Strength) but malus on secondary stat (example: H-C) -> Use high TL Weapons with (RELATIVE!) lower damage output and generally lower health/resists

    Boost of secondary stat (example: H-C) but malus on primary stat (example: Strength) -> Use low TL Weapons with (RELATIVE!) higher damage output and generally higher health/resists

    How about using the same idea for Drugs?

    -------------------

    But before that a suggestion of streamlining:

    If you boost a primary stat, only set a malus on a secondary stat of that specific tree (for example don't boost intelligence (primary stat) while giving a malus on remote control (a dexterity tree secondary stat).

    -------------------

    Problems this creates (IMO) with intelligence and the proposed solution:

    Problems: High advantages for classes who are independent of intelligence in their armour choice.

    Spies get punished in belt choice if they boost weapon lore (malus on primary stat intelligence plays a role for armour choice)

    Tanks don't get punished at all if they boost weapon lore (malus on primary stat intelligence plays no role for anything: imagine a Tank with 5 intelligence and 240 weapon lore :>!)

    Solution: There are only trader drugs for the intelligence primary stat, no malus besides drugflash.

    -------------------

    Problems this creates (IMO) with constitution and the solution:

    Problems: High advantages for constitution heavy classes to boost their secondary stats while still using the best resist implants in the game.

    Solution: Constitution drugs don't give a malus to the primary stat but to other secondary stats in the same tree instead.


    -------------------

    Intelligence Drugs:

    TL4:

    Destrosol
    INT:+4

    TL16

    Thiosofanol
    Not needed, scrap it.

    Demerisol
    Not needed, scrap it.

    TL64:

    Dolinskin
    HCK:+10
    IMP:+10

    Blue Fairy
    CST:+10
    RES:+10

    Destrosol Forte
    Not needed, scrap it.

    TL96:

    Destrosol X-forte
    HCK:+15
    IMP:+15

    Nightspider:
    CST:+15
    RES:+15

    Constitution Drugs:

    TL4

    Paratemol
    CON:+4
    ATL:-10
    END:-10

    TL16

    Terisamol
    HLT:+10
    ATL:-5

    Etharudol:
    ATL:+10
    HLT:-5

    Hemoserol:
    HLT:+10
    END:-5

    Gemilirimol
    END:+10
    HLT: -5

    TL64

    Paratemol Forte
    ATL:+15
    HLT:+15
    END:-15

    Resist Potions
    +30 Resist
    -20 Health

    Dragon Drugs (Because FSM: Make them Stronk!)
    +60 Resist
    -20 Health

    TL96

    Paratemol X-Forte
    ATL:+30
    HLT:+30
    END:-30

    Strength Drugs:

    TL4

    Thyronol
    STR:+4
    H-C:-10
    M-C:-10

    TL16

    Terisamol:
    TRA:+20
    STR:-1

    Epantenarol
    ATL:+20
    STR:-1

    Ferinerol:
    H-C:+10
    STR:-1

    Trisolin
    M-C:+10
    STR-1

    TL64

    X-Strong
    TRA:+20
    FOR:+10
    PCR:+10
    STR:-3

    Kri'nakh Nightshade (Make it a Drop only, no recycling)
    H-C:+20
    M-C:+20
    ATL:+10
    STR:-3

    TL96:

    X-Beast
    H-C:+30
    M-C:+30
    FOR:+15
    PCR:+15
    STR:-5

    Dexterity Drugs:

    TL4

    Serumderibat
    DEX:+4
    P-C:-10
    R-C:-10
    RCL:-10

    TL16

    Pentaserin
    T-C:+20
    DEX:-1

    Etharudol:
    AGL:+20
    DEX:-1

    New Drug 1
    R-C:+10
    DEX:-1

    New Drug 2
    P-C:+10
    DEX:-1

    TL64

    Whiteflash
    T-C:+20
    AGL:+20
    DEX:-3

    New Drug 3 (Make it a Drop only, no recycling)
    P-C:+20
    R-C:+20
    RCL:+20
    DEX:-3

    TL96

    Redflash
    R-C:+30
    P-C:+30
    RCL:+30
    T-C:+15
    AGL:+15
    DEX:-5

    PSI Drugs:

    TL4

    Havenin
    PSI:+4

    TL16

    New Drug 4
    PPU:+10
    PSI:-1

    New Drug 5
    APU:+10
    PSI:-1

    New Drug 6
    FCS:+10
    PSI:-1

    New Drug 7
    PWR:+10
    PSI:-1

    TL64

    Havenin Forte:
    PSU:+20
    FCS:+20
    PSI:-3

    Kri'nakh Mushroom (Make it a Drop only, no recycling)
    PPU:+20
    APU:+20
    PSI:-3

    TL96

    Havenin X-Forte
    PPU:+30
    APU:+30
    FCS:+15
    PWR:+15
    PSI:-5

    -------------------

    Amount of drugs for each TL an Skill:

    TL4

    INT 1
    CON 1
    STR 1
    DEX 1
    PSI 1

    TL16

    INT 0
    CON 4
    STR 4
    DEX 4
    PSI 4

    TL64

    INT 2
    CON 13
    STR 2 (1 the one for damage secondary stat is drop only)
    DEX 2 (1 the one for damage secondary stat is drop only)
    PSI 2 (1 the one for damage secondary stat is drop only)

    TL96

    INT 2
    CON 1
    STR 1
    DEX 1
    PSI 1

    -------------------

    changes/effects/problems i see with my proposed changes:

    - Lvling with Drugs is limited by +4 on primary stat through drugs

    - Setup which depend on drugs are limited by +4 on primary stat through drugs

    - Through this proposal PE's could be gimped hard.
    - Either make lower TL weapons very viable
    - Or give them special +DEX on their PA's so they can still reach a reasonable TL of weapons

    - Possible imbalanced situations:

    - A Tank can take the best drugs to boost his dexterity secondary stats without any drawbacks on weapon choice or armour choice
    - A Spy can take the best drugs to boost his strength Secondary stats without any drawbacks on weapon choice
    - A PE can take the best drugs to boost his strength Secondary stats without any drawbacks on weapon choice
    - A Psi Monk can take the best drugs to boost his strength or dexterity secondary stats without any drawbacks on weapon choice

    - Ithink i read that Drone and PSI Damage is calculated differently from the rest. Either adjust damage calculation for those mechanics to the rest, or edit the values accordingly on the drugs (an even damage bonus for everybody from taking the same TL drugs would be nice)

    Any feedback would be appreciated!

    But if you're mean i'll come and hunt you ingame ;-)
    Last edited by Odimara Orca; 29-10-15 at 00:31.

  9. #99

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    I made some changes to equalice the values on all the drugs.

    Because i'm to dumb to find the edit button here the updated list (Changes indicated through Update).

    Inconsistencies with my self given streamlining rules have been fixed as well.

    ------------------------------

    Intelligence Drugs:

    TL4:

    Destrosol
    INT:+4

    TL16

    Thiosofanol
    Not needed, scrap it.

    Demerisol
    Not needed, scrap it.

    TL64:

    Dolinskin
    HCK:+10
    IMP:+10

    Blue Fairy
    CST:+10
    RES:+10

    Destrosol Forte
    Not needed, scrap it.

    TL96:

    Destrosol X-forte
    HCK:+15
    IMP:+15

    Nightspider:
    CST:+15
    RES:+15

    Constitution Drugs:

    TL4

    Paratemol (Update)
    CON:+4
    ATL:-10
    HLT:-10

    TL16

    Terisamol (Update)
    HLT:+20
    ATL:-10

    Etharudol (Update)
    ATL:+20
    HLT:-10

    Hemoserol
    HLT:+10
    END:-5

    Gemilirimol (Update)
    END:+20
    HLT: -5
    AGL:-5

    TL64

    Paratemol Forte
    ATL:+15
    HLT:+15
    END:-15

    Resist Potions
    +30 Resist
    -20 Health

    Dragon Drugs (Because FSM: Make them Stronk!)
    +60 Resist
    -20 Health

    TL96

    Paratemol X-Forte (Update)
    ATL:+30
    HLT:+30
    END:-45

    Strength Drugs:

    TL4

    Thyronol
    STR:+4
    H-C:-10
    M-C:-10

    TL16

    Terisamol
    TRA:+20
    STR:-1

    Epantenarol (Update)
    PRC:+5
    FOR:+5
    STR:-1

    Ferinerol
    H-C:+10
    STR:-1

    Trisolin
    M-C:+10
    STR:-1

    TL64

    X-Strong
    TRA:+20
    FOR:+10
    PCR:+10
    STR:-3

    Kri'nakh Nightshade (Make it a Drop only, no recycling) (Update)
    H-C:+20
    M-C:+20
    TRA:+10
    STR:-3

    TL96:

    X-Beast
    H-C:+30
    M-C:+30
    FOR:+15
    PCR:+15
    STR:-5

    Dexterity Drugs:

    TL4

    Serumderibat
    DEX:+4
    P-C:-10
    R-C:-10
    RCL:-10

    TL16

    Pentaserin
    T-C:+20
    DEX:-1

    Etharudol
    AGL:+20
    DEX:-1

    New Drug 1
    R-C:+10
    DEX:-1

    New Drug 2
    P-C:+10
    DEX:-1

    TL64

    Whiteflash
    T-C:+20
    AGL:+20
    DEX:-3

    New Drug 3 (Make it a Drop only, no recycling) (Update)
    P-C:+20
    R-C:+20
    RCL:+20
    AGL:+10
    DEX:-3

    TL96

    Redflash
    R-C:+30
    P-C:+30
    RCL:+30
    T-C:+15
    AGL:+15
    DEX:-5

    PSI Drugs

    TL4

    Havenin
    PSI:+4

    TL16

    New Drug 4
    PPU:+10
    PSI:-1

    New Drug 5
    APU:+10
    PSI:-1

    New Drug 6 (Update)
    FCS:+20
    PSI:-1

    New Drug 7 (Update)
    PWR:+20
    PSI:-1

    TL64

    Havenin Forte (Update)
    PWR:+25
    FCS:+25
    PSI:-3

    Kri'nakh Mushroom (Make it a Drop only, no recycling) (Update)
    PPU:+25
    APU:+25
    PSI:-3

    TL96

    Havenin X-Forte
    PPU:+30
    APU:+30
    FCS:+15
    PWR:+15
    PSI:-5
    Last edited by Odimara Orca; 29-10-15 at 14:49.

  10. #100
    Registered User Teal`c's Avatar
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    One of the most annoing features is the drugflash , resulting in a 10 minute forced break or getting a rezz after selfkill command.
    I just went on testserver for the adjusted items and drugs and after 1 minute i decided that i wouldnt use them if they come to life server in that state. Not because of their negative effects , simply because of the drugflash. Didnt looked deep into all the numbers either. Its just against the nature , the brain wants to be drugged all day long.Period.

    So i would change druguse in general this way :

    •using the same drug in a short time period after the duration of the drug before has ended will remove the drugflash and if possible will reduce the effectiveness because the body getting used to it .For example : 1. HLT + 15 ; 2. HLT +13 ; 3. HLT +11
    •Drugflash only after u quit drug use or taking a different one
    •Drugflash can also be removed by using ?Painkillers? , who are very expensive. There has to be a money drop
    •cheaper high end drugs because new players ( are they even exist ? ) havent that much money

    Using only one drug will give u no negative effects but they will come alive if youre drugged by different ones :
    1. HLT +15
    2. ATHL +10
    = HLT + 15 ; ATHL +10 ; END -20

    numbers doesnt matter in this case because i dont know all the changes of implants/armor .... .
    Reason behind this are runners who are insanely drugged and also full ppu buffed.

    20794162-Girl-eating-too-much-drugs-overdose-concept--Stock-Photo.jpg

  11. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teal`c View Post
    One of the most annoing features is the drugflash
    I disagree. If you remove drugflash you remove the most important downside they currently have -> drugs would instantly become a mandatory bonus you absolutely need.

    I'd rather have them in game as a mechanic which allows you differentor optimized setups (psi hybrid or additional resists for example) but with serious downsides (drugflash, malusses on tl of usable weapon)


    Please do NOT remove drugflash. After all inconviniences make a game challenging.

    If you dislike drugflashes don't use them.

  12. #102

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    For Tank:

    Thyronol
    STR:+4
    H-C:-10
    M-C:-10

    X-Beast
    H-C:+30
    M-C:+30
    FOR:+15
    PCR:+15
    STR:-5

    Terisamol (Update)
    HLT:+20
    ATL:-10

    Etharudol (Update)
    ATL:+20
    HLT:-10

    Paratemol Forte
    ATL:+15
    HLT:+15
    END:-15

    Paratemol X-Forte (Update)
    ATL:+30
    HLT:+30
    END:-45

    Pentaserin
    T-C:+20
    DEX:-1

    Etharudol
    AGL:+20
    DEX:-1

    Whiteflash
    T-C:+20
    AGL:+20
    DEX:-3

    Redflash
    R-C:+30
    P-C:+30
    RCL:+30
    T-C:+15
    AGL:+15
    DEX:-5

    Result:
    - 1 STR
    -10 DEX
    -60 END


    +20 HC
    +20 MC
    +15 FOR
    +15 PCR
    +55 ALT
    +55 HLT
    +55 TC
    +55 AGL


    I would take every Single Drug from that list and become HULK.
    10 Drugs Setup.. But HOLY SHIT..
    Last edited by Hackebeil; 03-11-15 at 17:01.

  13. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hackebeil View Post
    Result:
    - 1 STR
    -10 DEX
    -60 END


    +20 HC
    +20 MC
    +15 FOR
    +15 PCR
    +55 ALT
    +55 HLT
    +55 TC
    +55 AGL


    I would take every Single Drug from that list and become HULK.
    10 Drugs Setup.. But HOLY SHIT..

    Don't forget the short duration of the tl4 Drug.

    It would be quite the unpractical nightmare to stay drugged like that.

    Are the Dex Drugs still too strong for a Tank?

    Quite what I feared would happen.

    Solution 1: Including a 4 to 5 Drug Cap, 6th Drug induces Drugflash, with the 7th it gets worse, etc.

    Solution 2: Assign cross tree malusses

    minus on APU, PPU, H-C, M-C on Dexterity Drugs
    minus on H-C, M-C, P-C, R-C, RCL on Psi Drugs
    minus on APU, PPU, P-C, R-C, RCL on Strength Drugs

    Question @Bragi: Nobody specs into Endurance anyways.

    Is it technically possible for minus values on Endurance to affect boosters (You have a drug with a malus on Endurance -> your stamina boosters will be less effective)?

    or exchange the endurance malus through a movement speed malus (was thinking 0.5 to 1.5 to 3 percent (TL16 / TL64 / TL96))

    Thanks for feedback.
    Last edited by Odimara Orca; 03-11-15 at 18:36.

  14. #104

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    Please stop sending me PMs. As I have stated several times before, I want all discussion kept public.

    Info is being taken on board, though drugs are on a semi-hold at the moment.
    As several people have mentioned, the underlying problem is not so much the values the drugs give (which we can argue about all day), but the whole flash implementation as it stands. It breaks the flow of the game and a loophole has to be used to get around it.
    Alas, unlike the values which we can change easily, altering anything to do with flash is a hardcode issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Odimara Orca View Post
    Question @Bragi: Nobody specs into Endurance anyways.
    Which is a shame. It's a wasted subskill. Giving it meaning would be good. I've been mulling over the effects of sub-skills on both hp and sta for a bit.
    Bragi
    Balancing
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  15. #105
    freedom for neocron! Torg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bragi View Post
    As several people have mentioned, the underlying problem is not so much the values the drugs give (which we can argue about all day), but the whole flash implementation as it stands. It breaks the flow of the game and a loophole has to be used to get around it.
    yes, annoying. but if the drugflash was removed, drugs would be a requirement instead of an option. right now you can chose between a skill boost for a limited time while being stopped by the side-effects sooner or later OR playing without a boost and uninterrupted. what's wrong with having a choice? you just can't have a cursed soul, holy heal and stealth in one char either.

    i'd even vote for removing the killself command to stop the loophole use.

    on endurance: what about making it a skill to lower the chance of getting a drugflash by a certain percentage? not down to zero but to a soft cap bottom line. this way we could distribute CON points for runspeed, resists, health and easier drug-use. is that viable within neocron's code?

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