1. #46
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    Now I'm not going to go into as much depth as I've seen certain people go into, what with the giant lists and what not, but I'll go ahead and give my input on the implants and what not.

    Overall, the changes to implants isn't so bad, with one exception. It seems as though you guys completely forgot about Private Eye's(Or perhaps you just hate them). There is no way to reach a good setup with higher end TL weapons without ripping your con setup to shreds and reducing your overall str/transport(due to new items just to have armor, 1 gun, 2 medkits, healtool and 2 clips of ammo you need 30-35 base transport so you don't get encumbered) so your armor choices are weaker which ends up making you squishier than a spy. The worst part is, you still don't do nearly as much damage as a frikkin spy! The +6 dex PA isn't nearly enough to compensate for how horrible the negatives are on the required implants to use most of the decent guns, and I'm sorry but the Pain Easer and Wyatt Earp just aren't up to par with the others, not to mention why should PE players be stuck to shit tier low TL items? We're already locked out of the upper echelon of weapons and now we're being pushed even further down...


    The balance you're aiming for isn't balance at all, I can't think of anything less balanced than making a class completely under par than every other class. I know I've given the NST a lot of flack but there's no reason to punish all PE's just because I main them...


    EDIT: To sum it all up, PE's suck with the new patch, we lose too much str/con stats to use a proper armor/con setup(squishier than spy), damage output is awful especially with lower bonuses due to required +dex imps. Why do you hate me?


    EDIT 2: There is a reason why rare implants give better bonuses btw. It's because if you take the time to farm them you fucking deserve the better bonus. Don't try to turn this into Communist Neocron. If you feel they shouldn't give better bonuses, then remove them from the rare pool. Put the SF back into CA FSM and the swat to another fsm and the other rare imps to other fsm's because there is absolutely no point in having yet more worthless rares. Already half of the rare pool is complete rubbish ffs. Might I add this horrid attempt at balance won't fix that, it will just make the game even less balanced. Not to be insulting but do you even do any testing once you start altering these numbers or do you just blindly change and hope for the best?
    Last edited by Aerocytes; 06-08-15 at 07:51.

  2. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aerocytes View Post
    Now I'm not going to go into as much depth as I've seen certain people go into, what with the giant lists and what not, but I'll go ahead and give my input on the implants and what not.

    Overall, the changes to implants isn't so bad, with one exception. It seems as though you guys completely forgot about Private Eye's(Or perhaps you just hate them). There is no way to reach a good setup with higher end TL weapons without ripping your con setup to shreds and reducing your overall str/transport(due to new items just to have armor, 1 gun, 2 medkits, healtool and 2 clips of ammo you need 30-35 base transport so you don't get encumbered) so your armor choices are weaker which ends up making you squishier than a spy. The worst part is, you still don't do nearly as much damage as a frikkin spy! The +6 dex PA isn't nearly enough to compensate for how horrible the negatives are on the required implants to use most of the decent guns, and I'm sorry but the Pain Easer and Wyatt Earp just aren't up to par with the others, not to mention why should PE players be stuck to shit tier low TL items? We're already locked out of the upper echelon of weapons and now we're being pushed even further down...


    The balance you're aiming for isn't balance at all, I can't think of anything less balanced than making a class completely under par than every other class. I know I've given the NST a lot of flack but there's no reason to punish all PE's just because I main them...


    EDIT: To sum it all up, PE's suck with the new patch, we lose too much str/con stats to use a proper armor/con setup(squishier than spy), damage output is awful especially with lower bonuses due to required +dex imps. Why do you hate me?


    EDIT 2: There is a reason why rare implants give better bonuses btw. It's because if you take the time to farm them you fucking deserve the better bonus. Don't try to turn this into Communist Neocron. If you feel they shouldn't give better bonuses, then remove them from the rare pool. Put the SF back into CA FSM and the swat to another fsm and the other rare imps to other fsm's because there is absolutely no point in having yet more worthless rares. Already half of the rare pool is complete rubbish ffs. Might I add this horrid attempt at balance won't fix that, it will just make the game even less balanced. Not to be insulting but do you even do any testing once you start altering these numbers or do you just blindly change and hope for the best?
    Excuse me, but I don't think anyone is hating PEs. From what i can tell we have three specialized classes - each in their own fields: Tanks= STR/CON, Spies= INT/DEX and Monks INT/PSI. The Private Eye was deliberately designed as a jack-of all trades. He can do everything to a degree, but will never be quite as good as one of the specialized classes. You are being told so as well during character creation. So it is not much of a surprise that a PE can't use a Doom Beamer, Disruptor or other high-end weapons. From what I can tell they are meant to stick to non-rare weaponry - which based on the planned changes are supposed to become more useful because no longer is the highest-TL gun supposed to be the best. This also means that PEs can theoretically squeeze better performance out of lower-TL guns. I don't know about armor, but considering the armor-overhaul in progress I am sure there will be some tweaking to account for the problem you are mentioning.
    I do, however, have difficulties believing PEs to be squishier than spies because spies have even less CON than PEs

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morekai View Post
    Excuse me, but I don't think anyone is hating PEs. From what i can tell we have three specialized classes - each in their own fields: Tanks= STR/CON, Spies= INT/DEX and Monks INT/PSI. The Private Eye was deliberately designed as a jack-of all trades. He can do everything to a degree, but will never be quite as good as one of the specialized classes. You are being told so as well during character creation. So it is not much of a surprise that a PE can't use a Doom Beamer, Disruptor or other high-end weapons. From what I can tell they are meant to stick to non-rare weaponry - which based on the planned changes are supposed to become more useful because no longer is the highest-TL gun supposed to be the best. This also means that PEs can theoretically squeeze better performance out of lower-TL guns. I don't know about armor, but considering the armor-overhaul in progress I am sure there will be some tweaking to account for the problem you are mentioning.
    I do, however, have difficulties believing PEs to be squishier than spies because spies have even less CON than PEs


    Clearly you either don't have much experience with this game or never played a PE much, let me go into a bit of an explanation for you.


    Currently, and for longer than I care to remember at this point, PE's have required stacking multiple mc5 implants to get the dex required for any sort of decent gun. Despite the fact that in some cases you can indeed use, say a TL82 plasma rifle, it will NEVER come anywhere close to the damage that a tl100+ rare will dish out. Certainly you can kill people with it, but only if your aim and dance skills outclass theirs massively.

    Now on to the jack of all trades things. PE's have to squeeze shit implant builds and sometimes drugs just to use something like say the TL108AK. That's as far as we can go without a completely shit build. Dex is our main stat and thus it should be that we can use the low and mid range rares for said field, not the top obviously, but I'm not sitting here saying I want to use a dissi or FL. We take a sizeable drop in damage compared to spies in exchange for a decent bump in tank, that's how it's been for a while and it's been fine.


    The way it is now with the implants on the test server, to reach the proper dex to get a proper weapon you have to stack implants that have some pretty serious detriments to them. They reduce your total str, they reduce your transport(loss in pierce/force resist here because you need more transport just to carry your gear set and a few clips of ammo) and you also end up losing a big chunk of agi and athletics, which is very painful considering the huge minuses you've already incurred in dex(pc/rc), con(you end up with 30-40 MINUS body health WHICH IS HUGE) and you drop str making it so you're stuck using pretty much the exact same armor a spy can.

    So as a summary, your str drops which requires you to use the same armor spies do. Your con drops causing you to lose so much body health that if you want to use a heal tool your resists are just in tatters, and depending on the imp setup you go it tears apart your ability to use proper psi setup, and to top it off our dmg is even dropped MASSIVEly from this. Currently on live, by sacrificing agi etc I have 190 p-c and 180 something r-c respectively on my pistol and rifle PE's. On the test server due to implant requirements I'm down to 150pc and 120rc.


    Essentially it comes down to this choice. Do you want to do the maximum dmg with a low end weapon, dealing about half the dmg output a spy has, while having a tiny bit more tank than they do, or do you want to try to use a proper weapon, deal a bit more dmg than before but have your stats tore up so bad that your tank is now comparable to a spy and you have much less dmg than they do still.



    Also, stick to nonrare weapons? Again, only a TINY bit more tank than a spy and for that we have to swap in over half of our dmg output, which even now is less than a fucking spy? [Edited]





    EDIT: monks are fucked too, but I don't really care about that so w/e have fun.
    Last edited by Bifrost; 07-08-15 at 14:58. Reason: Flaming/Trolling

  4. #49

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    [Edited]

    None the less on this occasion I have to agree with you.

    I was going to write a similar post myself, but feel you've already covered off the relevant aspects.

    I really hope the Support team take on board the negative but constructive criticism from the community, and rethink this whole "Re-Balance".

    It's great to see the time invested from a support/development perspective, but it may be time to take a step back .... look at the time spent on this thus far and the current outcomes.....

    Things are being massively overcomplicated...
    There are now less viable setups available on the test server which is the opposite of what you are trying to achieve.

    There are a lot more pressing issues in the game which are not being addressed please take a serious think about this.


    Please, please, please do not kill off the best PVP experience available in an ORPG!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aerocytes View Post
    Clearly you either don't have much experience with this game or never played a PE much, let me go into a bit of an explanation for you.


    Currently, and for longer than I care to remember at this point, PE's have required stacking multiple mc5 implants to get the dex required for any sort of decent gun. Despite the fact that in some cases you can indeed use, say a TL82 plasma rifle, it will NEVER come anywhere close to the damage that a tl100+ rare will dish out. Certainly you can kill people with it, but only if your aim and dance skills outclass theirs massively.

    Now on to the jack of all trades things. PE's have to squeeze shit implant builds and sometimes drugs just to use something like say the TL108AK. That's as far as we can go without a completely shit build. Dex is our main stat and thus it should be that we can use the low and mid range rares for said field, not the top obviously, but I'm not sitting here saying I want to use a dissi or FL. We take a sizeable drop in damage compared to spies in exchange for a decent bump in tank, that's how it's been for a while and it's been fine.


    The way it is now with the implants on the test server, to reach the proper dex to get a proper weapon you have to stack implants that have some pretty serious detriments to them. They reduce your total str, they reduce your transport(loss in pierce/force resist here because you need more transport just to carry your gear set and a few clips of ammo) and you also end up losing a big chunk of agi and athletics, which is very painful considering the huge minuses you've already incurred in dex(pc/rc), con(you end up with 30-40 MINUS body health WHICH IS HUGE) and you drop str making it so you're stuck using pretty much the exact same armor a spy can.

    So as a summary, your str drops which requires you to use the same armor spies do. Your con drops causing you to lose so much body health that if you want to use a heal tool your resists are just in tatters, and depending on the imp setup you go it tears apart your ability to use proper psi setup, and to top it off our dmg is even dropped MASSIVEly from this. Currently on live, by sacrificing agi etc I have 190 p-c and 180 something r-c respectively on my pistol and rifle PE's. On the test server due to implant requirements I'm down to 150pc and 120rc.


    Essentially it comes down to this choice. Do you want to do the maximum dmg with a low end weapon, dealing about half the dmg output a spy has, while having a tiny bit more tank than they do, or do you want to try to use a proper weapon, deal a bit more dmg than before but have your stats tore up so bad that your tank is now comparable to a spy and you have much less dmg than they do still.



    Also, stick to nonrare weapons? Again, only a TINY bit more tank than a spy and for that we have to swap in over half of our dmg output, which even now is less than a fucking spy? [Edited]






    EDIT: monks are fucked too, but I don't really care about that so w/e have fun.
    Last edited by Bifrost; 07-08-15 at 15:02. Reason: Flaming/consistency

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    [Edited]
    Last edited by Bifrost; 07-08-15 at 15:04. Reason: Flaming/Off topic

  6. #51

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    [Edited]
    Last edited by Bifrost; 07-08-15 at 15:07. Reason: consistency/Off topic
    If you want to fix the game, start with the most essential part: The Community...
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    [Edited]
    Last edited by Bifrost; 07-08-15 at 15:10. Reason: Consistency/Off topic

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    [Edited]
    Last edited by Bifrost; 07-08-15 at 14:53. Reason: Flaming/Off topic

  9. #54

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    [Edited]
    Last edited by Bifrost; 07-08-15 at 15:12. Reason: Consistency/Off topic
    If you want to fix the game, start with the most essential part: The Community...
    Quote Originally Posted by Danae
    <&Danae> i don't like anything that's furry, totally dependant on me, and shits and pisses in sneaky places
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    Right, time to cool down your heads here.

    I don't want to see any more flaming here - this is my only warning. Anyone who has posted in this thread, I want you to read the forum rules again.

    If you don't agree with any points in this thread, that's fine. Just post a constructive feedback post. Just leave the flames and personal attacks/insults out.

    Back to the topic.
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  11. #56
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    i dont really get what you guys are upset about at all. the devs put up a test server, changed the game rules, let us test and comment, while the "real" server remained untouched. i think some of the new game rules & item values are great, while others could use a little tuning. i dont see that anyone destroyed anything, or broke neocron. its just a test server, guys. calm down. maybe we all should say things like "i have the opinion that the new imp values put the PE to disadvantage", or "it appears to me that we should bring the hybrid monk back at least". or whatever.

  12. #57

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    At this stage of the re-balance on implant, what can we possibly help polish ?
    Is there a post that sum-up the changes that has been done to implants so far ?

    Because from what I see the ideas are that:
    -MC5 are not "that" much stronger than rare implants
    -all commas are removed
    -more build variations allowing hybrids apu/ppu
    -random negatives effect which are unrelated to the core idea of the implants are removed
    -high TL doesn't mean more damage, allowing PE to be more competitive
    -high TL doesn't mean more damage, allowing more choices of weaponry for everyone among the rares instead of AK47/BHG9/DISSY being the top weapons

    All those ideas are good and I think you already working on this ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fremen View Post
    At this stage of the re-balance on implant, what can we possibly help polish ?
    Is there a post that sum-up the changes that has been done to implants so far ?

    Because from what I see the ideas are that:
    -MC5 are not "that" much stronger than rare implants
    -all commas are removed
    -more build variations allowing hybrids apu/ppu
    -random negatives effect which are unrelated to the core idea of the implants are removed
    -high TL doesn't mean more damage, allowing PE to be more competitive
    -high TL doesn't mean more damage, allowing more choices of weaponry for everyone among the rares instead of AK47/BHG9/DISSY being the top weapons

    All those ideas are good and I think you already working on this ?


    It's 'reviews' like this that are quite damaging for balance. Before commenting I suggest you copy your neocron game folder to another location, change your server selection on the launcher to test server, and hop on Vedeena for a few moments. Make sure that there is a second copy of your neocron game because when you select the test server it alters the client to the test server patch. Better to spend a minute copying than 30+ reDLing.


    In theory the idea's Bragi threw out aren't so bad, but in the implementing of it.... well it's not good right now man. Don't just take my word for it, like I said hop on Vedeena(test server) and check things out. There are vendors with all implants, woc disks, free money etc. You can try any build you want out without worry on it and that way you can fully see what the problems are here and why myself, and others, are quite unhappy with this 'balance'.


    Every time Vedeena is updated a friend and I hop on to test builds and duel quite extensively. I'm not just getting upset at the idea of implant changes.

  14. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fremen View Post
    At this stage of the re-balance on implant, what can we possibly help polish ?
    Is there a post that sum-up the changes that has been done to implants so far ?

    Because from what I see the ideas are that:
    -MC5 are not "that" much stronger than rare implants
    -all commas are removed
    -more build variations allowing hybrids apu/ppu
    -random negatives effect which are unrelated to the core idea of the implants are removed
    -high TL doesn't mean more damage, allowing PE to be more competitive
    -high TL doesn't mean more damage, allowing more choices of weaponry for everyone among the rares instead of AK47/BHG9/DISSY being the top weapons

    All those ideas are good and I think you already working on this ?
    These ideas are indeed good and well thought out. Even if the implementation is currently lacking for some classes. Still we should not flush good ideas down the drain merely because of flaring tempers.

    Yes, it is true that in my over ten years of playing neocron i never really got around doing a PE. Nor do i do PvP (mostly because it is no fun to me). Hence I can neither confirm nor falsify some of the statements given here about PEs allegedly being inferior to others. But assuming these statements to be correct i am sure the NST is trying to think of ways to make them equally viable - even without rare weapons (which in my perspective they were never supposed to be using anyway due to the comparatively low dex-cap).
    my recommendation would be that instead of merely saying "everything about [XYZ] is shit" make suggestions on how to improve it while maintaining the general roles of the classes. For example by increasing the amount of bonus damage gained by weapon skill beyond the required minimum. This way a PE with R-C 120 and a weapon requiring R-C 90 could deal about as much damage as a character who has R-C 130 for a weapon which requires precisely R-C 130.
    Basically this means that you are THAT good with a gun you are "familiar" with that you get about the same results as someone with a bigger gun who just unpackaged it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morekai View Post
    These ideas are indeed good and well thought out. Even if the implementation is currently lacking for some classes. Still we should not flush good ideas down the drain merely because of flaring tempers.

    Yes, it is true that in my over ten years of playing neocron i never really got around doing a PE. Nor do i do PvP (mostly because it is no fun to me). Hence I can neither confirm nor falsify some of the statements given here about PEs allegedly being inferior to others. But assuming these statements to be correct i am sure the NST is trying to think of ways to make them equally viable - even without rare weapons (which in my perspective they were never supposed to be using anyway due to the comparatively low dex-cap).
    my recommendation would be that instead of merely saying "everything about [XYZ] is shit" make suggestions on how to improve it while maintaining the general roles of the classes. For example by increasing the amount of bonus damage gained by weapon skill beyond the required minimum. This way a PE with R-C 120 and a weapon requiring R-C 90 could deal about as much damage as a character who has R-C 130 for a weapon which requires precisely R-C 130.
    Basically this means that you are THAT good with a gun you are "familiar" with that you get about the same results as someone with a bigger gun who just unpackaged it.


    Again speaking without even looking is not a good thing to do. In theory a lot of shit should be a lot of ways. In 'theory' communism is a beautiful concept. It is in practice where everything falls to shit.


    As the current 'balance' stands, PE's use lower TL weapons than spies(the other dex based class) and have less dexterity meaning less rifle/pistol combat skill. In short, we currently do less damage, which isn't terrible because we have 20 lvls more of con to use. With the new patch it will push us further down the weapon TL's which will have us dealing even less damage. The other problem with this is to continue using a decent TL weapon you must stack implants that have +dex on them which also have seriouse side effects. (you lose nearly 9 lvls worth of points right off the bat in JUST BODY HEALTH POINTS).


    So, to restart WHAT I ALREADY SAID, which for some reason people can't seem bothered to fucking read.

    With the new patch PE's lose more dmg(already the lowest dmg output class). With the new patch PE's lose tank(to become about the same tank as a spy).


    Before anyone wants to fucking kick up with "the idea is...." Shut the fuck up and GO TO THE TEST SERVER! It's not the fucking idea that matters it's how it's implimented. If you people don't fucking test the patch on Vedeena then the NST won't have any viable feedback to base their changes on and they will release a horrible patch to Titan that will fucking destroy any tiny semblance of balance that's left in this game.



    Remember a bit back? How a swat backup pistol or an AK with stack dmg could kill you with 5 stacks? That was because people like you said "hey that's a good idea" but never fucking checked the actual values on Vedeena.




    Bragi, ffs please keep in mind over half the people who posted 'feedback' obviously haven't even fucking played on the test server.



    EDIT: Morekai your idea is bad btw. So let's say a r-c PE can cap out wep dmg of a tl82 plasma rifle, ok fine. Let's look at a spy now, capping the dmg on a First Love. Does it seem anywhere near fair that the spy can deal over twice the dmg of the PE and the PE only has a handful of points more resist than the spy? That's not balance dude that's still fucking killing PE's. The way they balanced weapons DOES NOT ALLOW FOR THAT. The only way to make your halfbaked idea to work is to go back and redo months worth of patching on weapons. That is not balance. That is not progress. You are not helping.
    Last edited by Aerocytes; 08-08-15 at 07:01.

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