Your input on: Tier 3 implants vs Rare and MC5 implants

[Bragi]

Part of the implant rework involves making a decision about the relative potency of the rare and MC5 implants over the top level 'normal' implants.

On one hand, we want as many players to be able to engage in PvP at high level. Not everyone at that point has/can obtain the 'Tier 4' rares such as the Marine or Special Forces or the 'Tier 5' MC5s. As a result they should not offer significant bonuses above the Tier 3 implants.

On the other hand, these are the top level implants in the game, are considerably harder to obtain and should therefore afford higher benefits.

Here's some options to mull over; they are by no means the only avenues open, I just want to outline the main possibilities as I see them. Feel free to offer alternatives.

• Rare and MC5 implants should only offer a token bonus, unrelated to the main benefits of their Tier 3 originator.
  
  Eg. If the Co-Ord 3 gives +5 Dex, the Special Forces and the CCP might give +5 Dex and +10/20 respective bonus to transport, hacking or vehicle use. The availability of a 'second' or 'third' implant of the same type in itself increases setup variation and is a bonus of a kind.

• Rare and MC5 implants should do what the Tier 3 implants do, but just a bit better.
  
  Eg. The Special Forces might give +6 Dex or +5 Dex and +10 PC/RC.

• Rare and MC5 implants should afford bonuses significantly above those of the Tier 3 implants.
  
  Eg. The Special Forces might give +6 Dex and +15 PC/RC and the CCP +7 Dex and +15 PC/RC.

• The Rares and MC5s do something different.
  
  Ie. They offer something that the different Tier 3 implants do not.
  Of course how much more potent they are over the Tier 3 implants is still an issue.

My personal preference (let that be clear), is for the first option. In a similar vein that that WoC weapons should not be inherently better, I feel the Rare and MC5 implants should be a little 'extra' at high level. Otherwise it makes the Rare and MC5 implants too much of a necessity for endgame viability.
I am fully aware however, of the time and effort that goes into obtaining them. Is +20 HCK over something that cost 50k from BTFSM worth it?

I'd like to have as much variation in viable implant types as possible. Unless we expand both rares and MC5s to cover the entire range that the Tier 3 implants do, making them significantly more powerful decreases the number of viable implant/setup choices. If we do expand the range, the we close off the capped/near-capped but unequipped players from endgame.


Floor is open.

//Edit: Someone with access please move this to the vedeena discussion section.

[necrocon]

Ok, only taking a look at one chain of chips here. In this case for HC. It runs as follows. (unless I screwed up)

16 Synapse Soldier MOD S-11 STR:16*** STR:+1.00 H‑C:+7.30 INT:-1.50 ATL:-1.50
41 Synapse Soldier MOD S-12 STR:41*** STR:+1.71 H‑C:+13.70 M‑C:-2.82 ATL:-2.82
66 Synapse Soldier MOD S-13 STR:66*** STR:+2.51 H‑C:+20.10 M‑C:-4.14 ATL:-4.14
115 Area MC5 Balistic CPU STR:100*** STR:+5.23 H‑C:+10.46 TRA:+10.46 HLT:+10.46 END:+10.46

Though I would certainly like to enjoy that +5 str increase, it is pretty damned powerful. I could see reducing it, aligning it more with the progression that currently exists for a STR increase.

I also would ask... that Power Armor stats be considered, if such changes were to go through. (Especially for the few and proud HC Private Eyes).

[Ascension]

My personal preference (let that be clear), is for the first option. In a similar vein that that WoC weapons should not be inherently better.

Sorry to go off topic, but I'm still awaiting WoC weapons for APU, oh, and a rare poison beam?

Back on topic.

I think realistically, its all intrinsically linked with server population, if more are people playing its easier to get hold of the 'rare' chips.

I know this impossible to predict and fluctuates, arguably I'd vote for:

* Rare and MC5 implants should afford bonuses significantly above those of the Tier 3 implants.

But while population is low, they should be:

* Rare and MC5 implants should do what the Tier 3 implants do, but just a bit better.

As people feel they can manage without them, without feeling they're at a major disadvantage.

[Dasore]

• Rare and MC5 implants should only offer a token bonus, unrelated to the main benefits of their Tier 3 originator.
  
  Eg. If the Co-Ord 3 gives +5 Dex, the Special Forces and the CCP might give +5 Dex and +10/20 respective bonus to transport, hacking or vehicle use. The availability of a 'second' or 'third' implant of the same type in itself increases setup variation and is a bonus of a kind.

In my opinion thats total bullshit. So investing hours of playtime in the game gives you a bonus you dont really need, a few points transport or hacking are the only thing that would be even worth thinking of it. But still, therefor i wouldnt get rareparts or even thinking of going mc5. Like you said, hours of farming or 30k Bt-fsm. The Private Eye is the class that is in need of those implants then if they want to use higher weapons like they have to do already now.

• Rare and MC5 implants should do what the Tier 3 implants do, but just a bit better.
  
  Eg. The Special Forces might give +6 Dex or +5 Dex and +10 PC/RC.

Tier1: Coordination Advancement V0.1 // +2 dex
Tier2: Coordination Advancement V0.2 // +3 dex
Tier3: Coordination Advancement V0.3 // +4 dex
Tier4: Special Forces // +4 dex +2 subskill bonus ( +10rc +5tc/wpl)
Tier5: MC5 DIP // +5 dex +2 subskill bonus ( +15rc +10tc/wpl)

That way you chould still play without the mc5s.... SF is just a bit better and mc5 is still worth farming.

• The Rares and MC5s do something different.
  
  Ie. They offer something that the different Tier 3 implants do not.
  Of course how much more potent they are over the Tier 3 implants is still an issue.

Level 3 Rifle Implants give +dex (coordination) +rc +tc +wpl (long distance), what else should the rare or mc5 boost? That would be a total waste of the implants. They are made to boost a certain skill you prefer to use in PvP and PvE, except trader implants. I m the mighty woced Rifle Spy with MC5 and rare implant invested hours of farming those things and now i can use heavy weapons and repair cause of those? lol


Setup variation was something neocron lost when going nc2, but also then every tank used moveon/ppr/marine. The problem atm is that every class has to use at least 1 resistor chip to not get overrun in pvp. Hc tanks use the Melee Mc5 Chips cause the stats are better. So for hc you got 1 or 2 free brain implants you can choose, not hard to choose the right onces as marine/moveon are worthless. The rest of the implants is nothing you can really even think bout changing anything.

Same with RC/PC. 2 Resistors or 1 and long/close distance, DIP/CCP, SF/Swat.

About Monks and there implants atm and in the future i could write hours of text, dont want someone to fall asleep so probably later when you guys got the point when we see what you exatly plan to do. (Mc5 DS, +5 psi, +15 apu/ppu, change of the hybrid malus)

[Drachenpaladin]

In my opinion thats total bullshit. So investing hours of playtime in the game gives you a bonus you dont really need, a few points transport or hacking are the only thing that would be even worth thinking of it. But still, therefor i wouldnt get rareparts or even thinking of going mc5. Like you said, hours of farming or 30k Bt-fsm. [..]

But isn't that whats makes this the best option of all?
Think about it, its what people want after all. Making T4 and T5 implants a convenience/nice-to-have item instead of a necessity lowers the entry level for PVP and it also lowers the costs/downtime in case of loss. Just like nobody really needs a WoC3 PA but everybody wants it - because swag!
Also this could lead to the resurrection of more varied skill setups, since people are not required to go all balls out weapon+resist for PVP, like you pointed out; it allows spare points for stuff like recycle, vhc or other hybrid setups. Melee/Pistol Tank anyone?

[Dropout]

Also this could lead to the resurrection of more varied skill setups, since people are not required to go all balls out weapon+resist for PVP, like you pointed out; it allows spare points for stuff like recycle, vhc or other hybrid setups. Melee/Pistol Tank anyone?

As long as there is no weapon caps, that will never happen.
People will always try to get the most out of their setups (for PvP).

[Drachenpaladin]

As long as there is no weapon caps, that will never happen.
People will always try to get the most out of their setups (for PvP).

Hence everything about the rares tier of weapons should be flattened stats-wise so it doesn't matter. Making rares a choice of personal preference rather then stats.

[slith]

As long as there is no weapon caps, that will never happen.
People will always try to get the most out of their setups (for PvP).

Falk has 55 Vehicle Use (Gliders!), 26 Pistol Combat (Mendicant SMG & Nailguns!), below 230 HC fully drugged and buffed and can use the A&W Scout Drone SR-1 and Crahn Energy Bolt.

My Exe-PE can also use Revenges and throw hand grenades.

My HC-PE can use Resurrection.

My Pain Easer PE can use Crahn Energy Beam. (Quote clanmate: "WTF is wrong with you?")

Heck, even my PPU can use the KK-100 and the F12 Flamer.

[William Antrim]

But isn't that whats makes this the best option of all?
Think about it, its what people want after all. Making T4 and T5 implants a convenience/nice-to-have item instead of a necessity lowers the entry level for PVP and it also lowers the costs/downtime in case of loss. Just like nobody really needs a WoC3 PA but everybody wants it - because swag!
Also this could lead to the resurrection of more varied skill setups, since people are not required to go all balls out weapon+resist for PVP, like you pointed out; it allows spare points for stuff like recycle, vhc or other hybrid setups. Melee/Pistol Tank anyone?

This.

[Model192]

Change the core of the game first, then change all the variables to the game.

This will just further dick PEs over.

[necrocon]

Whoa easy there pilgrim. Lol breath. I'm at work, and your getting to excited when I can't participate.

[Dropout]

The most important thing...
No more implants using rare parts.. Do.not.add.more.rare.implants!

• Rare and MC5 implants should only offer a token bonus, unrelated to the main benefits of their Tier 3 originator.
  
  Eg. If the Co-Ord 3 gives +5 Dex, the Special Forces and the CCP might give +5 Dex and +10/20 respective bonus to transport, hacking or vehicle use. The availability of a 'second' or 'third' implant of the same type in itself increases setup variation and is a bonus of a kind.

Really bad idea IMO. This would hurt PE's the most, and it would hurt them a lot.

• Rare and MC5 implants should do what the Tier 3 implants do, but just a bit better.
  
  Eg. The Special Forces might give +6 Dex or +5 Dex and +10 PC/RC.

Better..

• Rare and MC5 implants should afford bonuses significantly above those of the Tier 3 implants.
  
  Eg. The Special Forces might give +6 Dex and +15 PC/RC and the CCP +7 Dex and +15 PC/RC.

Much better! More DEX, mooooore DEX! (yes I need more dex for them noPA PE's!

• The Rares and MC5s do something different.
  
  Ie. They offer something that the different Tier 3 implants do not.
  Of course how much more potent they are over the Tier 3 implants is still an issue.

+lots of DEX and change your appearance to a stripper!
Otherwise, just no.

My personal preference (let that be clear), is for the first option. In a similar vein that that WoC weapons should not be inherently better, I feel the Rare and MC5 implants should be a little 'extra' at high level. Otherwise it makes the Rare and MC5 implants too much of a necessity for endgame viability.
I am fully aware however, of the time and effort that goes into obtaining them. Is +20 HCK over something that cost 50k from BTFSM worth it?

WoC weapons should not be better, I definitely agree on that. WoC = iWin is just bad.
However rare implants NEEDS to be slightly better than all other implants.
Lets take MC5 Balistic CPU vs. Soldier3..
If the Balistic only gave +5(or 6) STR and +15 HC and the Soldier3 gave +2 STR but +20 HC, I would personally take the Soldier3 over the Balistic. A tank simply do not need the STR.
Of course its a different matter with DEX based implants, but it was just an example.



On a sidenote: I vote that MC5's requirements are lowered to 90 DEX/STR/PSI!
Yeah, again for the love of noPA PE's

[Tino]

Lets spend a lot of time making a tl curve for the implants...it will fix everything just like the weapons =)

[´Clayton]

In my opinion the rare and MC5 implants are fine the way they are now. So I vote for one of these 2 options:

- Rare and MC5 implants should do what the Tier 3 implants do, but just a bit better.
- Rare and MC5 implants should afford bonuses significantly above those of the Tier 3 implants.

I like the recent changes to the basecommander, making MC5s harder to get. But making MC5s harder to get and then nerf them to being optional doesnt make any sense!

At least now you have a goal, something to work towards to, in a team. Neocron is still easy enough to cap and equip your character in a matter of a few weeks even if you dont have much time to play. If you know your way around NC you can cap and equip your character much much faster!

People and society at large have become lazy and are used to instant satisfaction and entertainment! So dont make this game too casual because of this.

[Malabolgia]

Without going through too many comments, just my two cents in here:

NST wanted the MC5 become harder for certain reasons, wich is a good idea to let rare chips become rare.
The question is: why should a player farm for those, if there is a possible well working setup without the real need of a MC5? If it becomes just some sort of gimmick, why go farm them at all?
Over a decade one thing was clearly visible quite often: the unawarenessnes of what happens if you just turn one screw in the system.
Neocron in my personal opinion faces an upcoming problem in the future: with flatlining and bringing things closer together the speciality of certain things is significiantly reduced even more. Thus resulting in a game without real specialities. May it concern Implants, weapons, armor, or whatever. Keeping up variety of specialities makes things interesting and worth obtaining! As we start to reduce this its time to warn about this bad trend...
Seen this now due to balancing project a little. To me most weapons only differ in damage comparable in TL and thus maybe in a set frequency i cannot influence anymore, lenght of salve wich I cannot change (but other games offer that), and how it "looks like". The only real difference are clearly seen in indirect fire modes like the Winding Argument, the slow moving rocket of a rocket weapon, .... but these are nerfed so hard, that rarely ever someone uses it except maybe for leveling. I hope you get the point if I remember the freezer cannon, with wich you could really freeze your target. Correctly balanced in terms of carry weight, ammo useage, and reload time or aiming it still could be a strategic weapon. But for a long time now these weapons are just a statistic in the list of TH.org.
Do you want this to happen with MC5s now as well ??? I dont hope so

"Never change a running system" ... you know these "wise" words.
I would go vote for more variety , difficulty, content and speciality together with both points you offered:
- Rare and MC5 implants should afford bonuses significantly above those of the Tier 3 implants.
- The Rares and MC5s do something different. (BUT PLESE ADDITIONALLY)