Neocron has a support class problem

[Torg]

The MMORPG Neocron is different from other, „classic“ MMORPGs in many ways. Still, theres ranged and close combat, stealth, crafting, magic („psi“) and combat support activities. The combat support role is a crucial one, the more because Neocron doesnt have a simple „aggro“-system: You cant tag a mob and draw its aggro and damage for „tanking“ while being supported. In NC the NPC aggro always turns to the player doing more damage, in short timeframes.

The sole support class in NC is the PPU (other psi-using classes and roles like the PE are of less importance here), but to get a skilled PPU you'll have to level up as APU and LOM to PPU later. A less than desirable game element. The second unhinged game mechanic here is the necessity of magic („psi“) in a cyberpunk setting.
There is more means of self-defence (beyond armour, tho) available: nanites, which have the disadvantage of side-effects. Use too many nanite injections at once and suffer the consequences, unlike when using psi stuff.

Whats missing in the future-tech setting on Neocron? Tech-based support measures. Energy field projectors, shields, buffs, heal spheres. Imagine a projector for support activities, using INT, TC, probably not as effective as a holy heal or deflector, but surely a welcome alternative to todays situation, where you'd have to level up an APU in order to LOM to PPU so you can support other people.

We have to introduce support fields and/ or support rays, as an alternative and addition to psi.

[Drachenpaladin]

Give CST a combat vibe and mix it with Rigger skills to get a Battle Engineer, droppin da sentries and turrets like a baws!

[saadow]

I think you make a great point, in a game like this, Psionics and/or Magic really feels like an afterthought. That doesn't have to be the case though. If you look at Shadowrun, they very successfully mix the gritty technology with a real sense of the esoteric, and they take it even farther than Neocron. I like that it exists, because it gives more choices to people, and I'm always a fan of choices, even if sometimes those choices could be argued against for their sensibility or placement.

What if, for the sake of a more consistent scientific / gritty technological cyberpunk theme, they renamed psi users to scientists and they suggested these esoteric effects were made with mind-controlled nanites, through some kind of PAN (Personal Area Network) Interface? It could marry the concepts together. There was a great quote,

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." -Arthur C. Clarke

I do agree with you though, perhaps other avenues of support might be a good way to go? I'd also think maybe, there should be some way to address the issue of Passive Psi Users having to LOM to become what they want to be? Perhaps passive powers should provide levels to certain skills based on them being effective and useful?

[yavimaya]

battle engineer imo.

i was going to say since its mechanical based, a good option to give droners instead of monks, however adding in CST makes a lot of sense from a class perspective.

[Drachenpaladin]

battle engineer imo.

WHAT I'M SAYING! Make it happen!

[yavimaya]

WHAT I'M SAYING! Make it happen!

I know thats where i got the name!!!
i had a similar thought as soon as i read "droppable healing/ sheilds".
so i stole your name to back you up!!!

lets go battle engineers!

[Drachenpaladin]

Just want to say: it works in Planetside 2 soooo... we can make it happen too i think. Borderlands also got something like that with the Roland/Axton going on! I could also imagine making turrets deployable not only in OPs but for normal PVE everywhere.

[Dasore]

battle engineer with turrets is the most stupid idea i have heard for a long time and there have been many like pay2level etc. PvP in neocron is all about a players aiming, creating a class that doesnt need that will most likely be total worthless cause it doesnt have enough dps in pvp or pve, or totally overpowered cause of the missing aiming.

on the other hand i have to say, that idea doesnt sound all that stupid if you do it that way that the turrets only shoot at a player when he is aimed by the turret owner with a laserpointerlike weapon

devs please respond soon and tell us that this idea is stupid, i m already thinking of my engineer in hellgate london damn that was a cool but short time

[yavimaya]

I agree droppable turrets may not be the best idea, unless it was maybe limited to 1 as support fire.
However the original idea of healing, shields, buffs, etc is not a bad one at all.

[Drachenpaladin]

I agree droppable turrets may not be the best idea, unless it was maybe limited to 1 as support fire.
However the original idea of healing, shields, buffs, etc is not a bad one at all.

Yep, lets get that ShamanUhmImean Engineer become reality

[William Antrim]

I like the laser designator idea but it would weaken the engineer rather than buff him as the gun would be static whereas the engineer wasnt. It would be easily avoidable.

I like the area denial tactics more however with properly working defensive ability turrets. You could recreate all of the psi based effects with nannites (heal sanctum, heal, etc) and have the turret dispense them to players within the area. It may make an interesting dynamic at some op fights but it would be (as usual with static items) map dependent.

The problem I see is again static actors vs mobility.

IF the engineer had the opportunity to place multiple turrets at different locations then he would be of benefit to his team as he could function AS the ppu in multiple places. This would be his ultimate strength.

If however he had to stay near his turrets this might be better to balance things, being out of range of them would leave him vulnerable for example.

But then what would you do about him in stealth? would the turrets suddenly cease to operate? It would only be fair if they did but retained any shields and effects cast prior to stealth as in the way things work for other classes.

At the end of the day I think this comes down to map design and situations etc. As the engineer hacking the OP or as the guy down in the UG buffing and healing your team youd be a god send I am sure. But if these buffs are all instant cast by the turret and not by the engineer then it could potentially be a ppu-with-stabilisers then this might be both a blessing and a curse. If the class does ppu style buffs then its good for people with no aim but if it is too good at this job then nobody will play a ppu any more and it will be down to how many battle engineers have you got in your clan?

I dont see any offensive role for this class at all, not in nc. But if the idea is an alternate to PPUs then there might be some legs in it.

[OFT]

but to get a skilled PPU you'll have to level up as APU and LOM to PPU later. A less than desirable game element.

I agree the class could use some tweaking, but I disagree that it must be completely changed. You are saying that I "have to" (must) level up as APU. But that isn't true. I have raised many PPUs over the years. You can level up as PPU...It just isn't leveling up as quickly as APU.

The second unhinged game mechanic here is the necessity of magic („psi“) in a cyberpunk setting.

Minority Report, Akira, Aeon Flux are all dystopian worlds involving PSI abilities. Magic occurs when you shit a rainbow. PSI power occurs when some street vendor jams illegal implants in your face and spine and amplifies your brainwaves. Won't find that in Lord Of The Rings Online.

Imagine a projector for support activities, using INT, TC, probably not as effective as a holy heal or deflector, but surely a welcome alternative to todays situation, where you'd have to level up an APU in order to LOM to PPU so you can support other people.

This brings me to the crux of my humble counterpoint: Population is the reason PPU is slower to level. And slower to level is the reason people choose APU instead of PPU. There aren't a bunch of teams out there at any given time to support, so APU makes more sense if you are going for speed. I was just at MB a couple weeks ago healing people in a team. They were overjoyed that someone bothered to play PPU at midlevel instead of going APU all the way to /64 and then LOMing.

By this logic, any support class won't be a popular choice to level from 0 to WOC because it will be inherently slower than an offensive class. In your example, this would be droning to higher level, then LOMing to this "battlefield engie" class you are suggesting.

Leveling PPU isn't slow because it is broken. It is slow because you can't always find a team, especially at lower levels, so you have to play a different class for a while, or work on your APU.

Waiting to level a PPU in a team when the population can support it seems to be the root-cause of why people choose APU/LOM/PPU over straight PPU. The same thing would happen with the battle engineer... would you agree?

And if you're going to make a new class called Battle Engie that can drop turrets and do some offensive stuff like Drachenpaladin suggested, then wouldn't it just make more sense to bring back hybrid APU/PPUs?