1. #31
    freedom for neocron! Torg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CMaster View Post
    Ages ago I wrote this:
    http://forum.neocron-game.com/showth...our-Make-Sense
    Might still be relevant?
    still valid, while i dont mind a little bumpiness here and there.

  2. #32

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    If you guys complicate armor your just gonna screw it up...go back to the nc1 armor =)

  3. #33
    That guy necrocon's Avatar
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    Keep moving forward, skip these nay sayers. Lol

  4. #34
    Xpertz William Antrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tino View Post
    If you guys complicate armor your just gonna screw it up...go back to the nc1 armor =)
    Just NC1 stuff mostly would be better.
    "dulce et decorum est pro patria mori"

  5. #35
    That guy necrocon's Avatar
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    We would lose a bunch of things in the process. NC 1 was buggy also..

    I do admit for purely nostalgia related reasons I would like to walk in the beta/retail Neocron. Some good dupes in the old code, lol! Or that vendor in OZ that used to sell tools. The TL 90 construction tool was bugged. You could sell it for extreme profit! I helped turn that into a gm, lol. 50 + dudes hovering around buying, and selling their tools!
    Last edited by necrocon; 17-12-14 at 16:45.

  6. #36

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    Can we still discuss about the armor topic or was a final decision taken yet ?

    Cause i'd love to throw my thoughts on the that matter :O

  7. #37

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fremen View Post
    Can we still discuss about the armor topic or was a final decision taken yet ?

    Cause i'd love to throw my thoughts on the that matter :O
    Just shoot away anyway i'd say.
    If you want to fix the game, start with the most essential part: The Community...
    Quote Originally Posted by Danae
    <&Danae> i don't like anything that's furry, totally dependant on me, and shits and pisses in sneaky places
    <&Danae> i have kids, i don't need pets ^^

  9. #39

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    Nice, I'll shoot it then :) First off, I'm really excited about all the upcoming changes and the fact everyone is trying hard to polish our beloved game. I think armor could use some tweaks indeed. On that topic I'll express my suggestions in a general aspect keeping in mind the upcoming changes to PAs, implants, and weapons balance and more importantly the time and efforts that devs can put into this rework project; we can't rebuild everything from scratch.

    *While I could list the suggestions already, I want to express my thoughts behind it first.*

    Generally speaking in normal FPS games you have:
    -3 hitzones: head, torso and legs, each receiving respectively boosted, normal and reduced damage.
    -A Global HP pool and no armor or if any, applied all-around.
    -Shooting works with either hitscan or projectile; burst fire could land on multiple hitzone.
    Tactics involve shooting at the center mass for maximum chance of successful hit or picking the more rewarding head area which is a much smaller target and very unproductive if upward recoil is not controlled.

    While this "damage to specific zone" works fantastically for normal FPS games, it doesn't suit NC for the following reasons:
    -NC aiming style is a "lock-on" target (high/mid/low) of the hitbox. The projectile hit success is determined by subskills, weapon stats, aim duration and range.
    -The 3P camera angle positioned above the character and going downward. Depending on the range between the player and his target, the head (high) hitbox will be equal if not bigger than the torso (mid). Such as in CQB where most pvp scenarios take place, the angle of the camera line of sight is so steep that the high target (head) is about double the size of the mid (torso). Also during OP wars, due to the amount of people involved we often rely on the high target zone to lock on somebody.

    Which leads to the fact that "damage to specific zone" of the hitbox might not be the logical approach.
    #1 Suggestion: Damage to head and torso should be identical. Receiving a damage modifier x1.0.

    Focusing damage on the low target (leg area) of players apply a speed debuff. Neat feature offering lot of tactical consideration. It needs to be balanced though so that the unique ability comes with a drawback; solution is lowering the damage compared to the high/mid area.
    #2 Suggestion: Damage to the leg area should receive a damage modifier x0.70~ this suggestion is in pair with the first one.

    Talking about target zone in the hitbox was the first topic I wanted to discuss. Which is leading us to the question: why do we have specific armor per zones ?
    After all if we look at the game we can see that:
    -All PVE mobs, robots, NPCs, Guards and Copbots have identical armor values or resistances among each 3 target zones.
    -Players are drawn wearing a PA or with their cloth on. Helmets, bulletproof vests and leg padding are never shown.
    So it seems that armor for specific area is a delusional paradigm of realism. Why would we choose to have specific defenses for specific areas ? It doesn't make sense for PvE and not much either for PvP.

    Had we global armor, it would feel like each piece of armor is a simple "booster" to defensive stats. The helmet would help protect your legs. Whereas now it feel satisfying and logical that your helmet boost defense only for your head. Even though it isn't textured on your character.

    We asked the question: should we have 1 global armor or 3 specific areas ?
    Answer: We can achieve the same results as a global armor if we tweak the itemization, while retaining the gratifying 3 specific areas.

    Currently you can't achieve a similar defense on each specific zone because of: belts and unique chest pieces. The setups we end up with is very awkward, especially for spies which are using mostly INT belts that give specific defenses very different from what you can get on the head/leg area. Same applies for some tank setups with unique chest pieces. But as we talked earlier, the head area and torso should receive identical damage and therefore identical armor values.
    In order to do so, we have to scale armor sets and tiers based on strength so that each tier would give identical armor value for Head, Torso and Legs.
    #3 Suggestion: scale every strength armor set to be equal between head/torso/leg. [helmet+neck=chest=legpadding+boots]

    Two issues remain though: unique chests and belts. Let's talk about unique chests first.
    For instance, the King Viper Vest is one item that we all love, and among other unique chest items, it causes balance issues. In order to beat that we could add missing set pieces of armor for each unique items, eg. create new helmet+boots for ViperKing set. Or remove the vest and add a Viper King PA with strong defense values.
    #4 Suggestion: replace unique items with PA or add missing armors to build a unique set.


    Belts ! Those cause a real issue. They apply only to the mid area and are very high TL. Both in PvE and PvP they are irrelevant. having a powerful fire belt could be useful if you get hit in the mid yet useless if it hits your high/low area, a typical PvE scenario.
    But what are belts anyway ? Currently they serve as a second armor slot for the mid area, because each area has 2 slots.

    What if we boosted the vest armor pieces so that they would be in mid area equal to the high area (helmet + neck) and the low area (leg+boots), and then make the belts a global booster just like PA is.
    Let's face it, belts are considered shields in the lore, so we could assume they protect the whole body just like the PPU deflector does.
    This solution would add an extra layer to complexity and variation in setups while also making armor balance easier. And would give spies and PSI a unique way to defend themselves with INT belts.
    #5 Suggestion: make belts apply their armor values (tweaked) globally like PA. Boost chest/vest pieces to meet their mid requirement as in #3. [helmet+neck=chest=legpadding+boots]


    Here is a sum-up of the 5 suggestions followed by a few examples of what could be achieved:
    #1 Suggestion: damage to high and mid areas should be identical. Receiving a damage modifier x1.0.
    #2 Suggestion: damage to the low area should receive a damage modifier x0.70~ tbd.
    #3 Suggestion: scale every armor set to be equal between head, torso and legs. [helmet+neck=chest=legpadding+boots]
    #4 Suggestion: replace unique items with PA or add missing armors to build a unique set.
    #5 Suggestion: make belts apply their armor values (tweaked) globally like PA. Boost chest/vest pieces to meet their mid requirement as in #3.


    Examples:
    -Tanks will gradually increase their armor with variety of sets as their strength goes up. Their resistances are very high but they can't stealth or heal. At mid level they encounter PAs which boost their resistances even more for PvE aspects of the game.
    -PEs will benefits from the STR armors and will be able to choose between STR and INT belts for more variations.
    -Spies will remain with low tier STR armor but will benefit greatly from their global armor belts making their resistances at least medium in one or two elements. Even if they remain the weakest, they can stealth.
    -APUs being currently the least played class will benefits from a defense increase thanks to the belts.

    As a conclusion, the actual armor system is correctable, it requires a bit of tweaking due to flaws we have since the start of NC2. I think equalizing damage between each area is one way to stick to the global approach while retaining the specific areas.

    Thanks for reading, looking for your replies.

    Cheers :) Exoteis

  10. #40

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    Ok, you really should go read the PTS forum in the future. Some of your suggestions are redundant - they are already in the works. Like armor working globally and mob armor getting full sets.

    If you want to fix the game, start with the most essential part: The Community...
    Quote Originally Posted by Danae
    <&Danae> i don't like anything that's furry, totally dependant on me, and shits and pisses in sneaky places
    <&Danae> i have kids, i don't need pets ^^

  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drachenpaladin View Post
    Ok, you really should go read the PTS forum in the future. Some of your suggestions are redundant - they are already in the works. Like armor working globally and mob armor getting full sets.

    Alrighty, thanks for pointing that out. I've read most topic on the english community forums, but didn't knew there was a PTS sub-forum ! Time to read all that

  12. #42

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    Its right atop the forums, geez
    If you want to fix the game, start with the most essential part: The Community...
    Quote Originally Posted by Danae
    <&Danae> i don't like anything that's furry, totally dependant on me, and shits and pisses in sneaky places
    <&Danae> i have kids, i don't need pets ^^

  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drachenpaladin View Post
    ...
    they are already in the works. Like armor working globally
    ...
    Hey Drachen, could you point me out in the direction of the armor working globally, cause i've went on the PTS and noticed the armor is not global but works as in retail, which is 3 zones, head/torso/feets.

    If it's working globally, we should remove the "head/torso/legs" cause it's misleading.

  14. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fremen View Post
    Hey Drachen, could you point me out in the direction of the armor working globally, cause i've went on the PTS and noticed the armor is not global but works as in retail, which is 3 zones, head/torso/feets.

    If it's working globally, we should remove the "head/torso/legs" cause it's misleading.
    Well, they only announced it so far, in the very beginning iirc. They wanted to go back to the old NC1 system with armor or something. Not5 sure whether that was discussed on here or the IRC tho...
    If you want to fix the game, start with the most essential part: The Community...
    Quote Originally Posted by Danae
    <&Danae> i don't like anything that's furry, totally dependant on me, and shits and pisses in sneaky places
    <&Danae> i have kids, i don't need pets ^^

  15. #45
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    I like the idea of being able to mod armor for more specific desires, something along the lines of -10 energy +10 fire mod or some such(change numbers as you see fit obviously). I am not fond in the least of the idea of the old armor system. As it stands I'm quite happy with armor applying directly to where it is. When taking legs out was a critical part of pvp there were quite a few who would pack an ionic shotgun weapon just for that purpose, swapping leg armor out to be resistant to xray and poison instead of the armor for the rest of the body could be a help or a hindrance, but the fact that the customization was left to your own design is what I like. I absolutely hate it when game devs start dumbing things down when they didn't need to, it makes me terribly sad. I would however like to see belts act as a covering for the whole body as well though seeing as how there are those fancy resistance belts that aren't really super useful. Something else I've mentioned before, it would be a rather large overhaul I believe, but ultimately it would make balance much much easier. If you at all can, make a difference between player and npc damage types. What I mean by this is say even though Fire Apoc and a firemob both deal fire damage, make a difference between the 'type' of fire damage they deal so to speak. If players and mobs deal different damage types you could add an entire different armor set just for pve, and even add special ammo mods meant for pve. Doing this you would never have to worry when making balancing patches "does this change we made for pvp make it impossible to farm?" and vice versa. You'll never find yourself having to rebalance because a pve changed mucked up pvp or a pvp change mucked up pve. Biggest thing I can think of in this is monk barrels and stack damage. I would love to be bale to properly stack dmg on a mob but doing 8 dmg a second on a thing that has a few thousand life just isn't worth it. Likewise a couple of barrels slapped down on top of you can be your doom in an instant but if you nerf barrels it does horrid things for monk farming.


    I like your idea on ammo but if you're going to widen the variety of damage types then that makes it far more difficult to make proper resist setups and would require many more changes to ensure proper balance. So perhaps sticking to the more elemental damage types as off damage on the ammo is a better option for now? I also feel that an ammo mod should do a little more damage than an unmodded gun. Mainly I feel this way because that's just how it's been for as long as I can remember and having all these saved up lvling weapons with ammo mods when now they give no purpose.... well it makes me sad that I didn't just slap a barrel or something on it instead of that ammo mod. This also goes to something to has caused me to quit several games in the past, devs changing things that have been standing for a long time without doing any form of repayment for all that they ruined with said change. If you're going to nerf or otherwise make something worthless, at least pay reperations for the damage you caused.


    I've already been very vocal with my thoughts on implants, to sum it up I think whoever is in charge of the implant overhaul is massively incompetent and has no forethought in their actions when it comes to altering numbers and actual balance of the game. They seems to be making alterations without considering other factors. You can't just change one thing without considering everything that ties into it and assume the best will come from it. Along the lines of implants though I would like to see some more variation in the form of mobility/tank implants. Perhaps something along the lines of +10atl +15 energy resist +10hlt -10rc/pc/hc etc. You know give the option to sacrifice damage for tank or vice versa, something like a MASSIVELY toned down kami chip.



    EDIT: To Fremen, half of your suggestions would horribly dumb down the game and take much of the thought out of building your character. Currently the way the customization is you have to take into account of what guns are viable, who's currently playing and what their more favored weapons are. With the changes you suggest you could practically just put one set on and be fine regardless of who shows up. Personally I'm not fond of that in the least, in my opinion if you want a simplified or dumbed down game you can play something produced by Blizzard. Part of what makes this game amazing fun is the depth of thought required to put together a build that will withstand properly in pvp, and even then you can be shit on if someone shows up with something you weren't planning for.


    And just to restate, one size DOES NOT fit all. It never has and it never will. You can not make blanket change and expect it to resolve anything. If things a shelf isn't level while standing at 6m, it won't be level if you chop off 2m from each side. It will just be shorter while still being lopsided.
    Last edited by Aerocytes; 10-08-15 at 02:16.

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