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  1. #1

    Default Blog: Balancing - Phase 1.5 and 2

    Dear Runners,

    we need your feedback on some of our ideas spooking around in our heads for Phase Two, please have a look at the full blog post. You will also be able to find some minor details on the next patch inside that post.

    So tell us, what do you think about the armor system, the removal of localization of armor bonuses and armor modding?

    Sincereley,
    Your Neocron Support Team
    Alduin
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  2. #2
    Registered User nabbl's Avatar
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    I like the first suggestion very much. The regional damage type thing does not make much sense. Especially when you have almost no options to choose from.

    But can you give us an example of the "Armor-Mod-System"? Let's say I have some Heavy Kevlar armor. Can I simply mod them so they have less fire but more poison resists?

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by nabbl View Post
    But can you give us an example of the "Armor-Mod-System"? Let's say I have some Heavy Kevlar armor. Can I simply mod them so they have less fire but more poison resists?
    I understand that it will be like weapon mods, so +resists or resist type. A welcomed change IMO.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by nabbl View Post
    I like the first suggestion very much. The regional damage type thing does not make much sense. Especially when you have almost no options to choose from.

    But can you give us an example of the "Armor-Mod-System"? Let's say I have some Heavy Kevlar armor. Can I simply mod them so they have less fire but more poison resists?
    In some sense, yes. The details have still to be worked out, but before spending too much manpower on that and working in a direction which the com does not want, we thought we better share those ideas first of all.

    The first idea/system which came to my mind was: each armor part has a basic resistance value and a basic distribution, this distribution you can alter by plugging in mods. So instead of having a part with 100 points fire resists you could have an armor part with 50 fire 50 poison for example.
    Alduin
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  5. #5
    Reza's Executioner $tormbringer's Avatar
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    The old armor system was way better imo. You already mentioned in the Blog how pieces like the Viper King Armor or Heavy Belts are just not worth it anymore. The old system would add more diversity in the setups.
    While you are at the removal of comma values for implats, could you do the same for the armor parts too? (And buffs, while you are at it)
    And, being part of the whole armor stuff, it would be nice for good alternatives for PAs (Armor mods that add skill boni, while reducing the defensive stats of the armor for example)... style is everything
    $tormbringer -|- Celas Victoria -|- Shogoki

  6. #6
    Registered User nabbl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alduin View Post
    In some sense, yes. The details have still to be worked out, but before spending too much manpower on that and working in a direction which the com does not want, we thought we better share those ideas first of all.

    The first idea/system which came to my mind was: each armor part has a basic resistance value and a basic distribution, this distribution you can alter by plugging in mods. So instead of having a part with 100 points fire resists you could have an armor part with 50 fire 50 poison for example.
    Sounds good

  7. #7

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    How about adding some rare armor to the game that needs to be constructed from tech parts with the possibility for slots. You could also add a color mod to change the color of the armor, that would be baddass

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Faid View Post
    How about adding some rare armor to the game that needs to be constructed from tech parts with the possibility for slots. You could also add a color mod to change the color of the armor, that would be baddass
    how about balance game

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by $tormbringer View Post
    And, being part of the whole armor stuff, it would be nice for good alternatives for PAs (Armor mods that add skill boni, while reducing the defensive stats of the armor for example)... style is everything
    Did you see the hint in another thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Faid View Post
    You could also add a color mod to change the color of the armor, that would be baddass
    Hmmm.......
    Bragi
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  10. #10
    That guy necrocon's Avatar
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    Keep moving forward, skip these nay sayers. Lol

  11. #11
    That guy necrocon's Avatar
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    We would lose a bunch of things in the process. NC 1 was buggy also..

    I do admit for purely nostalgia related reasons I would like to walk in the beta/retail Neocron. Some good dupes in the old code, lol! Or that vendor in OZ that used to sell tools. The TL 90 construction tool was bugged. You could sell it for extreme profit! I helped turn that into a gm, lol. 50 + dudes hovering around buying, and selling their tools!
    Last edited by necrocon; 17-12-14 at 16:45.

  12. #12

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    Can we still discuss about the armor topic or was a final decision taken yet ?

    Cause i'd love to throw my thoughts on the that matter :O

  13. #13

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fremen View Post
    Can we still discuss about the armor topic or was a final decision taken yet ?

    Cause i'd love to throw my thoughts on the that matter :O
    Just shoot away anyway i'd say.
    If you want to fix the game, start with the most essential part: The Community...
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  15. #15

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    Nice, I'll shoot it then :) First off, I'm really excited about all the upcoming changes and the fact everyone is trying hard to polish our beloved game. I think armor could use some tweaks indeed. On that topic I'll express my suggestions in a general aspect keeping in mind the upcoming changes to PAs, implants, and weapons balance and more importantly the time and efforts that devs can put into this rework project; we can't rebuild everything from scratch.

    *While I could list the suggestions already, I want to express my thoughts behind it first.*

    Generally speaking in normal FPS games you have:
    -3 hitzones: head, torso and legs, each receiving respectively boosted, normal and reduced damage.
    -A Global HP pool and no armor or if any, applied all-around.
    -Shooting works with either hitscan or projectile; burst fire could land on multiple hitzone.
    Tactics involve shooting at the center mass for maximum chance of successful hit or picking the more rewarding head area which is a much smaller target and very unproductive if upward recoil is not controlled.

    While this "damage to specific zone" works fantastically for normal FPS games, it doesn't suit NC for the following reasons:
    -NC aiming style is a "lock-on" target (high/mid/low) of the hitbox. The projectile hit success is determined by subskills, weapon stats, aim duration and range.
    -The 3P camera angle positioned above the character and going downward. Depending on the range between the player and his target, the head (high) hitbox will be equal if not bigger than the torso (mid). Such as in CQB where most pvp scenarios take place, the angle of the camera line of sight is so steep that the high target (head) is about double the size of the mid (torso). Also during OP wars, due to the amount of people involved we often rely on the high target zone to lock on somebody.

    Which leads to the fact that "damage to specific zone" of the hitbox might not be the logical approach.
    #1 Suggestion: Damage to head and torso should be identical. Receiving a damage modifier x1.0.

    Focusing damage on the low target (leg area) of players apply a speed debuff. Neat feature offering lot of tactical consideration. It needs to be balanced though so that the unique ability comes with a drawback; solution is lowering the damage compared to the high/mid area.
    #2 Suggestion: Damage to the leg area should receive a damage modifier x0.70~ this suggestion is in pair with the first one.

    Talking about target zone in the hitbox was the first topic I wanted to discuss. Which is leading us to the question: why do we have specific armor per zones ?
    After all if we look at the game we can see that:
    -All PVE mobs, robots, NPCs, Guards and Copbots have identical armor values or resistances among each 3 target zones.
    -Players are drawn wearing a PA or with their cloth on. Helmets, bulletproof vests and leg padding are never shown.
    So it seems that armor for specific area is a delusional paradigm of realism. Why would we choose to have specific defenses for specific areas ? It doesn't make sense for PvE and not much either for PvP.

    Had we global armor, it would feel like each piece of armor is a simple "booster" to defensive stats. The helmet would help protect your legs. Whereas now it feel satisfying and logical that your helmet boost defense only for your head. Even though it isn't textured on your character.

    We asked the question: should we have 1 global armor or 3 specific areas ?
    Answer: We can achieve the same results as a global armor if we tweak the itemization, while retaining the gratifying 3 specific areas.

    Currently you can't achieve a similar defense on each specific zone because of: belts and unique chest pieces. The setups we end up with is very awkward, especially for spies which are using mostly INT belts that give specific defenses very different from what you can get on the head/leg area. Same applies for some tank setups with unique chest pieces. But as we talked earlier, the head area and torso should receive identical damage and therefore identical armor values.
    In order to do so, we have to scale armor sets and tiers based on strength so that each tier would give identical armor value for Head, Torso and Legs.
    #3 Suggestion: scale every strength armor set to be equal between head/torso/leg. [helmet+neck=chest=legpadding+boots]

    Two issues remain though: unique chests and belts. Let's talk about unique chests first.
    For instance, the King Viper Vest is one item that we all love, and among other unique chest items, it causes balance issues. In order to beat that we could add missing set pieces of armor for each unique items, eg. create new helmet+boots for ViperKing set. Or remove the vest and add a Viper King PA with strong defense values.
    #4 Suggestion: replace unique items with PA or add missing armors to build a unique set.


    Belts ! Those cause a real issue. They apply only to the mid area and are very high TL. Both in PvE and PvP they are irrelevant. having a powerful fire belt could be useful if you get hit in the mid yet useless if it hits your high/low area, a typical PvE scenario.
    But what are belts anyway ? Currently they serve as a second armor slot for the mid area, because each area has 2 slots.

    What if we boosted the vest armor pieces so that they would be in mid area equal to the high area (helmet + neck) and the low area (leg+boots), and then make the belts a global booster just like PA is.
    Let's face it, belts are considered shields in the lore, so we could assume they protect the whole body just like the PPU deflector does.
    This solution would add an extra layer to complexity and variation in setups while also making armor balance easier. And would give spies and PSI a unique way to defend themselves with INT belts.
    #5 Suggestion: make belts apply their armor values (tweaked) globally like PA. Boost chest/vest pieces to meet their mid requirement as in #3. [helmet+neck=chest=legpadding+boots]


    Here is a sum-up of the 5 suggestions followed by a few examples of what could be achieved:
    #1 Suggestion: damage to high and mid areas should be identical. Receiving a damage modifier x1.0.
    #2 Suggestion: damage to the low area should receive a damage modifier x0.70~ tbd.
    #3 Suggestion: scale every armor set to be equal between head, torso and legs. [helmet+neck=chest=legpadding+boots]
    #4 Suggestion: replace unique items with PA or add missing armors to build a unique set.
    #5 Suggestion: make belts apply their armor values (tweaked) globally like PA. Boost chest/vest pieces to meet their mid requirement as in #3.


    Examples:
    -Tanks will gradually increase their armor with variety of sets as their strength goes up. Their resistances are very high but they can't stealth or heal. At mid level they encounter PAs which boost their resistances even more for PvE aspects of the game.
    -PEs will benefits from the STR armors and will be able to choose between STR and INT belts for more variations.
    -Spies will remain with low tier STR armor but will benefit greatly from their global armor belts making their resistances at least medium in one or two elements. Even if they remain the weakest, they can stealth.
    -APUs being currently the least played class will benefits from a defense increase thanks to the belts.

    As a conclusion, the actual armor system is correctable, it requires a bit of tweaking due to flaws we have since the start of NC2. I think equalizing damage between each area is one way to stick to the global approach while retaining the specific areas.

    Thanks for reading, looking for your replies.

    Cheers :) Exoteis

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