[R#186] T#186-T#197 Patch Discussion

[Kame]

William you do not read what others post. What Im saying is :

ADJUST GAMEPLAY MECHANICS RELATED TO PVP BEFORE YOU EVEN START LOOKING AT NUMBERS.



Think about it for one minute, if after you have made the DPM/TL curve linear, lets say you remove 1 shot from a weapon burst... Gone is the linear curve, need to redo again !!!

#brains

[Tino]

Will obviously thinks game play mechanics don't need to be fixed lol

[Trivaldi]

Think about it for one minute, if after you have made the DPM/TL curve linear, lets say you remove 1 shot from a weapon burst... Gone is the linear curve, need to redo again !!!

#brains

With the new system at the foundation of all of this, that would automatically be balanced to compensate. The team would then fine tune the automatic value to ensure it fits in as expected. No drama. #CalmDown

Let's be clear here...

With our (the NST) Balance Project we're building to a point where we can make these fine adjustments to individual weapons that everyone is shouting about. In an ideal world we would be bringing less useful/powerful stuff into contention. We'd also be toning down stuff which is over powered with minor tweaks but (it's a big but!) we still have the issue of a less than ideal foundation. Up to this stage we have managed to wrangle certain weapons back into line on Titan, things such as the Disruptor are now far more well behaved than they were. While we have done that, it was far more complex to make those changes than it should have been. For the sake of analogies I'd want to call it a rotten foundation but it's not that bad, the problem is that things are still significantly less than ideal.

We're fixing that foundation to make as solid a foundation as we can, then we'll be adding the layers back in, ending up in a place where we can easily tweak balance while also bringing a lot of diversity back to PvP. Ultimately that does mean there'll be a certain amount of re-education, just this time it will be how to spec for the weapon you want. Which you'd expect from any balance change. Not how entire new features work (like nanites and extra bits of armour).

To be absolutely clear about a reoccurring issue/problem/point:

Right now you're not testing that Weapon A is effective in PvP, or that Weapon B feels like it should be beefier or should fire faster or should have a larger clip. While we do want your comments on those things, what you're testing with this patch right now; is that the numbers we put in on our end match what come out on yours. That the foundation and corrections to our tools/Neocron's code work as expected and intended. We need to make sure issues in the under lying systems have been fixed (which is where the time has gone) and that issues in our assumptions from the first balance test (what we launched on Sparta) are corrected.

In short, right now: We're making sure you get coffee out of the machine and not tea when we fill it with coffee beans.

Bragi's post later on will give you a much wider view of where we're going. Regarding the argument about always simply using the highest TL weapon for the highest damage. That's not how it's going to work. Bragi's post later on will probably expand upon that. You'll end up with a far more varied system which lets you spec your character based on your tastes, not just because "Weapon of the Minute" is the defacto weapon for your class.

MODERATION NOTE: Stick to the facts, drop all the personal stuff and get back to constructive discussion. Those who fall out of line will see themselves on holiday from the forums for a few days.

Edit: To stop anyone panicking, I'm not on the balance team and have nothing to do with balancing PvP. I'm just familiar with the project internally as I'm nosey.

[William Antrim]

No I just think that your idea is flawed tino and i am giving reasons why behind it.

Kame as for your suggestion.....


#brains indeed. If you remove one shot from the burst then all you need to do is make the others do an equal amount of damage that the previous burst did.

If a weapon has 4 shots and you remove one but it used to do 100 damage then you can make it do the same damage over 3 shots (ok to make it divisible by 3 we would make it do 99 damage....). Problem fixed.

Simple maths.

Making all weapons hit all the time with a closed reticle IS the biggest issue I think you guys are trying to get at underneath all of the arguing. If thats the case then yes I agree completely. It doesnt retract from the fact you need a template though.

I think you will find you cannot argue with that logic.

[Tino]

I just want all the bugs fixed that prevent certain weapons from being used in pvp...you cannot argue with that logic.

[William Antrim]

We all do. Thats the whole point. Everybody wants the same end game. Everybody just has different views of how to get there. I just dont think the mad professor approach works.

[Powerpunsh]

Edit: waitin for Bragis post.

[Torg]

a discussion going nowhere, like so many times before. back to topic.

the current project/subproject is something that has never been tried before in the history of this MMORPG: getting statistical data as a basis for balancing, instead of tweaking according to guesses. NC was created and modified by a ridiculously small team (low 20ish headcount) and on an insecure financial background. Reakktor didnt die because of any ingame going-ons, but because its mother company 10tacle died by failed projects unrelated to KK. Bad luck. As i told you before i was working for (that-time) distributor CDV before NC was released and kept in touch with the matter for quite a while. By then they were discussing PvP as "endgame content", which was seen to be over-emphasized by parts of the the player community just because of the lack of other "endgame content". Because, you know, Neocron was written as an (MMO)-RPG, where you would level up through missions, trading and hunting, until... well, Neocron is still an unfinished game. Even DoY was supposed to be creating more endgame content by pitting 2 alliances against each other, instead of mere clan wars. We know this didnt work out perfectly. Since the "endgame content" didnt grow significantly, many players left, so mostly PvP-people are still ingame (youre welcome, dear guests).

What we need to do now is getting more data on all aspects of the game. The lore sung at the postnuclear hearthfires by seasoned PvP-ers is sadly based on individual and anecdotal experience and therefor may or may not apply to the majority of players. I think some of you (Kame?) already pointed this out. So we should be happy that the "scientist faction" within our community (i.e. brammers, sevendust and other NCnerds) are working on that.

I for one would have plenty of time after recovering from an over-exhausting election campaign (meatspace assignment) if not a serious case of eye surgery (retinal detachment. Status: fixed and recovering) did limit my screentime. It may take weeks or months until i'll return to active duty (i.e. pew-pew). In the meantime i shall contribute forum content occasionally, at least. So i'm counting on you to ninja Vedeena and harvest more information on our common arch enemy, the lich lord of leisuretime boredom, instead of getting into brawls over personal preferences in playing styles.

[Tino]

getting statistical data as a basis for balancing, instead of tweaking according to guesses

Who says statistical data is not gathered before any changes are made? Any changes that have been made to a weapon in the past I guarantee have had statistical data run for them. I agree that a base line should be made but that is AFTER the bugs for each weapon have been fixed and each weapon is in working order...so your telling me lets get base line statistical damage data for a broken weapon? Hahaha...the values are just gonna be screwed up once they decide to actually fix the weapon after the fact.

[Tino]

Lets spend all this time getting baseline statistical damage data using broken weapons...I promise that will not lead to broken baseline data =)

[jj dynomite]

Pistol Test using the minimum requirements in PC skill and capped, non-implanted PC skill.
Dex & Int = 100
Weapon Lore = 175
No Implants or Armor
Non-Modified Ammo
Non-Slotted, full Artifact weapons

Edit: Forgot to mention that this was VS Launcher Clops

[Bifrost]

Who says statistical data is not gathered before any changes are made? Any changes that have been made to a weapon in the past I guarantee have had statistical data run for them. I agree that a base line should be made but that is AFTER the bugs for each weapon have been fixed and each weapon is in working order...so your telling me lets get base line statistical damage data for a broken weapon? Hahaha...the values are just gonna be screwed up once they decide to actually fix the weapon after the fact.

Any bugs you know about with the weapons, please open a new thread in the bug reports forum - Thanks.

[Tino]

There is no point in opening a new thread for bugs that have been known for years...for example the ravager and creed not registering damage on a moving target

[Bifrost]

There is no point in opening a new thread for bugs that have been known for years...for example the ravager and creed not registering damage on a moving target

Please don't assume that we know about the bugs, even if the bugs have been known for years. The more bug reports and information we get, then there is a better chance of us developing a fix.

[Tino]

Your right I did assume this was common knowledge since the creed and ravager have not been used in pvp for a loooooong time...can I ask a serious question? Do the GMs even play NC?