[R#186] T#186-T#197 Patch Discussion

[Haliax]

Thank you for your Feedback Sevendust.

Regarding the frequency of weapons I want to quote Bragi's first post in this thread:

I would also like feedback on the 'new' frequency of the weapons. We know they are slower since we removed skill influence on frequency, and although it's obviously not as important as the DMP testing, I'd like to get an idea of how people want each of them to behave.

Please state your opinion on the frequency of specific weapons. Are they too slow? Should they have a different burst behaviour?


Regarding lags:
We are logging a lot of values on the player's end. Stuttering may occure on high frequency weapons because each shot gets logged. You can turn off this behaviour by setting ENABLELOGS="FALSE" in your neocron.ini file.
However it can be very useful for testing purposes so you may not want to deactivate Logging.

[AlvaroT]

For future testers: please check non rare gear too.

[gradius]

All Melee Weapons per first hit.
Tested on two Enemy types.

[gradius]

Flame Throwers need to be tested, I was hitting for 5700 dmg after 3 stacks of fire dot.

[Baldur]

How to level/cap your character on Vedeena:

1. go to Neocronstruct

2. find the altar

3. click the altar and get warped to the ceres temple

4. find "SUPERHARDMISSIONGUY" and talk to him

5. kill the rat he spawns

6. BLING

[subms]

So why do skills no longer modify frequency? Everything feels really sluggish now.

[Sevendust]

I didn't have the logging enabled when I first tested. It's just, for example: with the TL 113 AK, the freq showed it firing around every 0.55 secs, but in real-time realllllly didn't seem that way. But like I said in the PM I'm gunna be doing another round of testing, except much more detailed & balanced this time.

[aKe`cj]

So why do skills no longer modify frequency? Everything feels really sluggish now.

Because balancing is exponentially harder with every metric you add to the equation.

Taking away a variable makes it easier to "calculate" a baseline - which is the approach chosen by the NST.

However, I am not sure if just removing frequency will be enough though. For a rebalancing as thorough as the NST apparently aims for, I would believe that you have to strip the system of each and any modifiers, basically make rifle, cannon and stiletto equals and slowly add back the complexity and variation required for a rock paper scissors balancing.

That said, with the many variants/modifiers present in NCs combat system, I doubt anyone will manage to find the perfect mathematical solution. Players are not robots and some metrics can not so easily be translated into numbers. Consider a gun shooting 5 x 40 points vs 1 x 200 points per minute. How big is the advantage gained by a miss only accounting for 40 points?
Both guns are equal in dpm, but not the same in terms of balance.

I do not believe that balance is something you can stuff in a complex formula and be done.
I do hope that the frequency modifier will return and the removal is simply of a temporal nature, to allow for setting a solid foundation.

Good luck to the NST and the testers - guess you'll need it

[Bragi]

So why do skills no longer modify frequency? Everything feels really sluggish now.

Inconsistent impact of sub-skills on frequency.

Change the sub-skills and one weapon might gain/loose 5% DPM and another might be 10% (as an example).
Each weapon has a different burst number, shot number, burst frequency and shot frequency. Without completely homogenising the entire weapon range, the effect of sub-skills on frequency means the DPM curve would not scale as sub-skills alter.
With frequency fixed and only the dmg values being altered, the DPM alters the same for each weapon.

As Haliax mentioned, highlight which weapons seem particularly off. I've been doing my own testing and while some weapons operate at a reasonable speed, some are awkwardly slow, but I want to get the community's opinions on the matter.

As for slow vs fast, that's probably a long-term balancing subject. It depends if the ability to time/place the shots of a slow fire weapon does or does not out-weigh the DPM loss from missing a shot/burst and conversely, if the lower DPM loss from missing a shot/burst from a faster firing weapon does or does not out-weigh having to constantly track a target.

[Kame]

I'm sorry to say, but this all seems futile and off the mark.

I have been through what you guys are aiming for, it was called 2.2 and it was the wrong approach. Still baffles me that you guys are using the same Modus Operandi.


We dont give a shit that the damage vs TL isnt consistent. No matter how you change stuff, people are mostly always going to be using the top tier weapon that is easiest to use.

WHAT YOU NERDS DOT SEEM TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT TO ACHEIVE BALANCE, THE GAMEPLAY ASPECT NEEDS TO FEEL BALANCED.

Things like making harder hiting weapons harder to use are what I'm talking about. Take the disruptor for instance. 24 shots clip, highest damage in the non-sniper weapon range, yet easiest to use with 6x 4hits burst.

Basically takes hiting 6 hits to acheive full weapon damage potential.

Compare to the Judge. About 5TL lower. 20 shots clip, 2shits per click. Basically to hit 10shots to acheive full weapon damage potential. And it's damage is also lower...

So essentially you may have better hit/shots fired ratio with the judge but still do lower damage than disruptor even if you hit 50% more than a runner using disruptor.

This is the balance most of my clan wants adjusted, not some nerdy numbers crunching bullshit about how higher TL should do more damage.

[Dropout]

Things like making harder hiting weapons harder to use are what I'm talking about. Take the disruptor for instance. 24 shots clip, highest damage in the non-sniper weapon range, yet easiest to use with 6x 4hits burst.

Basically takes hiting 6 hits to acheive full weapon damage potential.

Compare to the Judge. About 5TL lower. 20 shots clip, 2shits per click. Basically to hit 10shots to acheive full weapon damage potential. And it's damage is also lower...

So essentially you may have better hit/shots fired ratio with the judge but still do lower damage than disruptor even if you hit 50% more than a runner using disruptor.

This is the balance most of my clan wants adjusted, not some nerdy numbers crunching bullshit about how higher TL should do more damage.

This!

Kame, Im depending on you to sort this shit out, while Im busy IRL.. I should get more time in a few weeks though..
So keep it up mate!

[Bragi]

Things like making harder hiting weapons harder to use are what I'm talking about. Take the disruptor for instance. 24 shots clip, highest damage in the non-sniper weapon range, yet easiest to use with 6x 4hits burst.

Basically takes hiting 6 hits to acheive full weapon damage potential.

Compare to the Judge. About 5TL lower. 20 shots clip, 2shits per click. Basically to hit 10shots to acheive full weapon damage potential. And it's damage is also lower...

Two things:

If the ease of use was equal for two different weapons (of the same TL), which would you use?

If the ability to use a higher TL weapon was offset by lower sub-skills than with the lower TL weapon and the DPM was accordingly balanced, which weapon would you use?

(Thirdly, the Judge and Disruptor are 15 TLs apart.)

[jj dynomite]

Is there a Good PVE option you would like us to use in testing? I don't have many other runners during my logon times to test with.

Also, can you take a look at poison stacking damage from swamp mobs. It's almost instakill right now.

Finally, can you give a link on how to activate the combat log again, i can't seem to find it.

Thanks NST!

[Kame]

If the ease of use was equal for two different weapons (of the same TL), which would you use?

I choose weapons based on damage and ease of use, in that order. So in your example I'd use the easiest one to use, which usually means they empty their ammo with the least possible clics. If that was equal then I'd decide most likely by damage type (energy, pierce, etc)

If the ability to use a higher TL weapon was offset by lower sub-skills than with the lower TL weapon and the DPM was accordingly balanced, which weapon would you use?

I would still choose the easiest weapon to use in the highest tier of that weapon category, if it makes decent damage of course.


Now if you would tell me, you can choose between fast runspeed or damage...

Now that, THAT, is where the balance we want comes in. That is gameplay balance, and this is what Neocron lacks at this time.

Now if you make all weapons fire at the same rate, along with all runners running at the same max speed... see where I'm getting at ?


/EDIT


Generally the game mechanic feel like they took a turn for the worse with runspeed reduction and now potential firing frequency reduction.

More obvious changes about weapons should be made than wrecking their frequecies. Look at the plasma range for instance:

Judge's ammo clip was shortened by half : unused.

First Love used to be a 4 shots burst and was now put to 2 shots : unused.

You didnt touch the CS : used.



You seem to inadvertantly make the game easier for everyone, and I dont think it's a right approach.
If anything PEOPLE GET BETTER AT GAMES SO YOU GUYS CAN STOP TRYING TO MAKE EVERYTHING EASIER.

Some weapons should be harder to use and ultimately will be used by players with a lot of skills, but the damage should be in line with other weapons else things go out of balance. You should ofcourse give them some bonus of some sort for using a hard weapon but that shouldnt be game-changing.
You should make a weapon harder/easier to use by adjusting the characteristic of the weapons, like decreasing ammo clip size, decreasing burst size, make it's ammo heavy or making it use a lot of stamina.

Some weapons should be easy to use and yet the damage should be in-line with other weapons. These will be the commoner's weapon and will allow that player to have fun while remaining competitive.
Making a weapon easy to use in my opinion is increasing clip size, increasing burst size, making ammo lighter or maybe MAKING IT POSSIBLE TO SEE YOUR OWN HP/STAM/PSI EVEN IF YOURE ZOOMED IN.

This is all very common when talking about PVP games. Again, you guys should stop thinking about that TL vs Damage curve thing too much.

[Sevendust]

As for slow vs fast, that's probably a long-term balancing subject. It depends if the ability to time/place the shots of a slow fire weapon does or does not out-weigh the DPM loss from missing a shot/burst and conversely, if the lower DPM loss from missing a shot/burst from a faster firing weapon does or does not out-weigh having to constantly track a target.

That's why we're here. To tell the GMs how the game is currently. WHat you just said, is exactly how it already is in-game. (if you want my honest opinion, no gun like the disruptor should exist. A fast-closing reticle with a big-long burst that does a ton of dmg? no thx imo. Reduce it to a 3-shot burst.

The other thing is, Kame has a point. No matter what is done for this balancing, ppl, and especially all of Kame & his group, will just use the strongest weapons in the game at the time. of which, will pretty much be the slow-firing, high-dmg weapons. How would you make an opposing side for these weapons? scale the DPM curve from low to high based on length of burst to shortness. If a fast firing weapon's DPM is only slightly higher or lower than a SLOW firing weapon's DPM, that means you would need to hit with 80-90%+ shots of the fast firing weapon to match the slow firing weapon. Wouldnt this make faster firing weapons do a good bit higher DPM than slower weapons? Yes, it sure would, and it would be balanced. How would that be balanced if then someone aimed a fast firing weapon good and did OP damage to ppl?...That IS balance....this is a shooter. If you have a weapon that really requires skill to do good damage with (fast firing) then shouldnt that person be rewarded by being able to do the most dmg?....this isn't a carebear factory.

Also, I'm starting to believe going by the TL isnt the way to go. If you think of someone who has a Rifle Spy, Every.Single.Rare.Weapon he has to choose from, low-tech or high-tech, is a DIFFERENT firing style or frequency. at that point you're already forcing that spy to use something that's among the top 5 highest TLs instead of using the gun he likes cuz it's lower TL & does far less damage in 5-6 secs...Anyway, what I'm trying to get at, is that there should be not much of a difference in damage done in an 8 sec time frame between the lowest & highest TL pistol, rifle, hc, melee, etc. Give people variety. Make useless weapons before now an option if you like it.

Also, take the range effect off the executioner. It's not a sniping weapon. & the effect makes the weapon useless.

PS: still working on the testing. Getting very detailed with this one.