Thread: New Patch ?

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  1. #31
    Xpertz William Antrim's Avatar
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    The English translation to that word is probably clusterfuck.
    "dulce et decorum est pro patria mori"

  2. #32
    former king of saturn
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    Quote Originally Posted by William Antrim View Post
    The English translation to that word is probably clusterfuck.


    My first thought as I read the German term.

  3. #33

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    "Hurry up and wait".

    To be fair, last time the community whined about something till they got input, the entire PSI skill was mangled across the board for all classes rendering it useless for all classes except ppu.

    Also, I don't bother helping out with anything. I've tried. If I send in anything to @exploits pretty sure it doesn't even get looked at.

    So I'll just hurry up and wait with everyone else.

  4. #34

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    Let me add a little bit more detail to Bragi's very nice post.

    The current balancing of Neocron can simply not be taken as a reference/foundation for discussions because there is no balancing. It is all over the place to say the least. Let's have a look at the TL vs DPM curve:
    dpm-old-v2.png
    the y axis being a set of weapons, the x axis being the damage per minute. Note that the tl spacing between weapons is not always equidistant, because we do not have a weapon each two tls. The tl of the weapon's is increasing from top to bottom. One clearly observes that there is not hierarchy. It is completely broken.

    So, as pointed out by Bragi, to create a foundation for discussion, we are first of all fixing the dpm hierarchy so we have a foundation for discussions where indeed there should be a hierarchy between weapons depending on their tl. We did not change the characteristics of the weapons (frequency and such) we only changed their damage per shot. The intended TL vs DPM curve which will go into T#186 looks as follows:
    dpm-new-v2.png
    the y axis being the same set of weapons as before, the x axis being the damage per minute. Note that the tl spacing between weapons is not always equidistant, because we do not have a weapon each two tls. This time there is a clear hierarchy between weapons.

    Both plots were made for one and the same skill setup. We also investigated whether different setups destroy the intended hierarchy. They dont

    As some of you know we intended to do this also in R#185 on Sparta. The reason it failed there, as stated before, is that the DPM does non linearly depend on the players setup, because the player's setup affects the frequency as well as the damage output of a weapon. We now have the possibility to fix the weapon frequency and thus make it independent of a player's setup to avoid this non-linear dependency.

    Our "Balancing Visualizer" takes into account a lot. In fact it uses the same calculations as Neocron does. However the problem is a multidimensional one (consisting of many parameters("Stellschrauben")). Visualizing the dependency of the dpm curve on all parameters at once is not possible, so we can always only look at certain dependencies and investigate how changes evolve. We have taken great care to make sure we figured out the main dependencies, but in the end you only know if you were right once you put your assumptions to test, which is what we are going to do very soon(TM)!

    In case there are people in the community which deal with correlations, data visualization, big data and such on a daily basis, please feel free to apply to help us analyzing the data and developing good models to model it!
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  5. #35
    The REAL Walker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alduin View Post
    snip
    Good read.
    And holy hell.. Didnt think that SH had such a crazy DPS.. Especially compared to BHG..
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  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dropout View Post
    Good read.
    And holy hell.. Didnt think that SH had such a crazy DPS.. Especially compared to BHG..
    Just to be clear, these graphs show Damage Per Minute and not per second.
    Trivaldi
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  7. #37
    The REAL Walker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trivaldi View Post
    Just to be clear, these graphs show Damage Per Minute and not per second.
    Im at work, so I just read it fast, but thanks for clearing it up
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  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alduin View Post
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    So you're saying melee has a chance!


  9. #39
    deals legshoots Powerpunsh's Avatar
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    Did you change aimspeed /range either? More charts please!
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  10. #40
    Xpertz William Antrim's Avatar
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    Theoretically by the maths every weapon should have a chance to do similar dpm to every other weapon around its tl. That's the whole point of using maths as a yard stick and not the opinions of players.
    "dulce et decorum est pro patria mori"

  11. #41

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    Pftt, you people and your 'balance'

    What I want to see is the shiny new textures. Please devs, give me some screenshots, I beg of you!

  12. #42
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    Well, its very intresting. Especialli if all exist weapons in game will work (dont know how its now, but on Terra and on start of Titan few weapons was not work. When shot they just waste ammo, and nothin more).

  13. #43
    The REAL Walker
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    Quote Originally Posted by William Antrim View Post
    Theoretically by the maths every weapon should have a chance to do similar dpm to every other weapon around its tl. That's the whole point of using maths as a yard stick and not the opinions of players.
    The major problem with this is the difficulty level of the weapons (how hard it is to use).
    Weapons like Dev and Libby are not easy to use. They need to do some more damage to make up for that.
    IMO skill should be rewarded. The harder to user, the more damage.

    Or do you want all weapons to act the exact same?
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  14. #44

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    Just a quick question so I can hopefully understand this effort and end goal a little better… Please excuse any misunderstandings.

    To me this seems more like weapon damage output equalization. Basically trying to get all weapons to have the same damage output by TL, stepping up or down with TL increase/decrease.

    Once this foundation is complete, will there then be a modifier applied to each class or other identifier? For example: If the equalization gives an APU and a H-C GenTank the same DPM with like TL weapons (APU using Holy Lightning TL 101 | GenTank using Ravager TL 100) wont that lead to even greater class unbalancing?

    I don’t expect an APU and Gentank to be able to stand toe-to-toe, hit ‘fire’ at the same time and both drop simultaneously. I also realize each class or player type needs to use differing tactics, but in this example, I see no tactic where the APU has a chance. The GenTank is faster, has more armor, and has more resists. The GenTank also has the highest TL weapons available. I see the same situation with other classes as well… Spy vs. GenTank: Range not an advantage anymore but at least the Spy will be able to stealth to get the hell out of there

    I am just trying to get a better understanding of the full thought process and end goal. I agree you have to standardize the DPM to start since it is the foundation.

    Fixed frequency has been mentioned as well. So once the damage has been standardized will the balance be attempted by adjusting frequency or even a class type modifier?

    Modifier example: H-C GenTank DPM modifier = 1.0 | APU DPM modifier 1.25

    Frequency example: H-C Gentank Ravager shots per minute = 120 | APU Holy Lightning shots per minute = 150

    Then it’s not really Damage Per Minute (DPM) anymore.

    So is this just more accurately described as Weapon Damage Standardization by Tech Level as a foundation to begin Class balancing?

    Sorry if this makes no sense and I have no idea what I’m talking about… I am also at work trying to prep for a meeting but wanted to throw this out so I can simply understand this whole idea/process/goal better.

    Thank You!

  15. #45
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    Don't turn this in to a carebear game. Skill is the #1 thing that makes this game unique.
    If everything becomes linear and "easy" to use, the game will die for sure, and it'll just be another mmofps shooter out there.

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