time to rework the freezer/para line of weapons

[Torg]

with the ongoing sparta balancing project we finally have a chance of reintroducing the freezer/parashock line of weapons. without freeze, that is.

nobody likes freeze and parashock, so lets remove that effect and make them DoT energy weapons. this could be achieved by replacing the freeze effect with plain energy damage. all animations would stay in place (graphics, sound and hud).

i just would like to see 4 ranges of good weapons (pistol, rifle, cannon and apu) brought back into use.

[Cursed Shadow]

I think the Shock is a good idea, I think the problem is with the balancing of the weapons, which require a delicate balance of:

- Rate of Fire
- Power of DoT
- Duration of DoT effect

I certainly don't think that the Stun affect should be viable in 1 v 1 fighting.
I think the stun should be maintained and actually if the person stops stunning the target, the effect should wear off rapidly.
Thus you would need a dedicated person to stun the victim, whilst another deals damage.

[Agent L]

nobody likes freeze and parashock, so lets remove that effect

Well, from nc1 I remeber that everyone LOVED it to death, tanks speccing enough P-C to use freezer pistols etc.

It was an excellent mechanics until it was screwed up to the point when paraglue literally stopped ppl from moving at all.
As with all issues, it's not a matter of smth being present or removed, it's a matter of it being strong enough to be usable, yet not overpowering.

[Manuel Moonez]

I think CS has a point here, make it so that the stun has to be kept up. There certainly needs to be an effective counter to people just laming around stuff when they´re under fire.

[Torg]

i just doubt we would get a majority vote for reintroducing freeze from the NC player base.

[Cursed Shadow]

Really?

I remember it being one of the fun tactics of OP Fights: Melee Tank utilizing an Electric Tempest.

Although, I must admit it was frightfully overpowered at that time.

[Agent L]

i just doubt we would get a majority vote for reintroducing freeze from the NC player base.

I'm sure we would - If we'd ask ppl who remember the ancient times when it worked ok.
I think the "NC player base" you're thinking about are people who remember only the part when it was OP. I do agree that it was a Bad Thing.

[nabbl]

An "I can't move anymore" freeze should never come back to the game again.

But part of melee tactics was freezing the enemy so he can hit more often. It was quite good in team fights but in 1on1s the enemy just used an antifreeze drug and he was shooting while taking it. It was kind of pointless in 1on1 situations.

But why not bring it back a little less strong? Melee has some serious issues apart from being an underpowered class. There is really nothing special in being melee. You cannot kill stealthers for example. Every spy in stealth is just unreachable for a melee tank.
The electro shock was be a possibility to give the melee tank some diversity again.
I mean the whole game got a lot more boring with Evo2.2 regarding diversity. APUs are the Glass Cannons ... I mean ok KK failed to give the APU enough damage to be a cannon but now they are just boring.
Same with melee tanks. They could freeze which gave them some value in OP Fights.
There are two classes which are fun to play in terms of diversity. Spy and PPU. The rest is exchangable.

I think the melee needs to get some love in terms of making him Fun to play so he has a reason to even exist.

[hazzard]

I'm sure we would - If we'd ask ppl who remember the ancient times when it worked ok.
I think the "NC player base" you're thinking about are people who remember only the part when it was OP. I do agree that it was a Bad Thing.

Paraglue. I remember this very well. Did people use it before it was glue?
I'd like to see some melee tanks again. If a non-glue shock/freeze would help, I'll welcome it.

[Divide]

I was a huge proponent of removing para from the game as a whole back in NC1. I haven't really been in many opfights since having returned, but I can say there are both positives and negatives to it being MIA right now.

I think re-introducing this mechanic is going to be tricky no matter how much buy-in the vols receive from the community. It's one of those double-edged swords where one side is so shiny and attractive that people are tricked into shallow consideration during discussion about the tail-end.

Ultimately, I would argue that para is indeed missing from the game right now, not simply in the 'it's not there' way, but in the 'something is missing here' way.

My ideal implementation for para would be that it dissipates upon damage, and that it did not affect the mouse-look mechanic. Leaving para on after damage is applied is really a bad idea. It becomes a ridiculously slippery slope and will eventually return para to what it was in nc1: he who paras first, wins.

To help melee with this, their para really should be ranged. If you look at law enforcement's tazers, they have the ability to use them in two ways-- one, a hand-held tazer that must connect with the target; two, an add-on cartridge for ranged firing. The range is extremely limited and after one fire that cartridge is boned. This mechanic would probably make the most sense for melee.

[Agent L]

An "I can't move anymore" freeze should never come back to the game again.
[...]
But why not bring it back a little less strong?

Yes and yes. That was my whole point.

Paraglue. I remember this very well. Did people use it before it was glue?

Yeah, they did. H-C tanks specced enough P-C to use the Pocketblizzard. I think there was either no freezer cannons back then or their effect was too small to be worth the time spent shooting.
It is still a valid idea imho: give freezing to only few professions, especially the shorter ranged melee and pistol, but no to the H-C and R-C snipers.

I was a huge proponent of removing para from the game as a whole back in NC1. I haven't really been in many opfights since having returned, but I can say there are both positives and negatives to it being MIA right now.

I think re-introducing this mechanic is going to be tricky no matter how much buy-in the vols receive from the community. It's one of those double-edged swords where one side is so shiny and attractive that people are tricked into shallow consideration during discussion about the tail-end.

Ultimately, I would argue that para is indeed missing from the game right now, not simply in the 'it's not there' way, but in the 'something is missing here' way.

Exactly. I was talking about times when freezers were weak, but noticeable. People went like "hey, it's cool, let's have more of it" and this was how para was created. This combined with the PPU World Domination Front. And we all know how THAT ended. Sadly, the community cannot be trusted, not over common sense at least.

My ideal implementation for para would be that it dissipates upon damage, and that it did not affect the mouse-look mechanic. Leaving para on after damage is applied is really a bad idea. It becomes a ridiculously slippery slope and will eventually return para to what it was in nc1: he who paras first, wins.

That's interesting idea, kinda the "stop running away and fight like a man" thingy.

[Divide]

That's interesting idea, kinda the "stop running away and fight like a man" thingy.

Yeah, instead of the NC1 method - 'stop running and fight like someone with bone spurs and Parkinson's'.

[Dribble Joy]

Anything that removes control of a character from the player I am not a fan of.
Even if para is only effective until you next receive damage, that still gives them a huge advantage as it limits your ability to avoid what is coming next. Not to mention that constantly having to shock or being shocked and unshocked would be very annoying for both the victim and the shocker. it would break up the flow of the fast-paced nature of the game.

Doing something else entirely with shock weapons is something I am more in favour of.

[AlvaroT]

What about snare instead insta shock? Like non stackable timed debuff to athlethics. It could be stun that works only on npc/mobs but not on players as well.

[William Antrim]

Agent l I think you and I remember a vastly different nc1. Freezer cannon wielding tanks were prevalent in nc1 and it was shit. People left in droves due to campaigns against freezing. Giving someone the chance to maintain a freeze on a player will just lead to bigger teams of players going around freezing solo and small groups of players.

The great thing about nc currently is that even if you get jumped then you have a chance to fight back. With balancing this will become even easier as the ttk ought to go up a little with some weapons. This is a good thing. Anything which shortens that again and removes or inhibits the ability of the defender to fight back is a terrible thing. Do you remember the campaign to remove para on these forums?

Having a pure energy effect makes them not be freezer guns any more and so could confuse people. However bringing them back into viable use is a great idea. I would want to see pure damage only being the effects of use. Nothing else at all. Ever.