1. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Torg View Post
    yes. but. weapon damage is not (hasnt been, wont become) related to TL only. theres also your main combat skill (ie RC) and one or two secondary skills (like WEP, TC). the TL graph is just a start, a rough balancing. imho.
    Indeed. The new curve is one part of the process. The a later stage will make clear what we are aiming for.

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  2. #47
    Roger Ramjet Fanboy Number 1 RogerRamjet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khorwin View Post
    Hello every one.
    I'm not sure but using a simple curve for the increse of dpm with the tool lvl is a mistake.

    The idea that using a tll 115 is harder than a tl 110 is only good when you are leveling the character. Once your capped this truth became false.
    Let see for exemple a spy using a Disruptor (115) and and a Healing light (110), what would be your poking template for using both of those weapon.
    Area MC5 Distance Projector, Special Forces CPU, Experimental Reflex booster V2.4, Wisdom of Ceres Silver Assassinationsuit and surely a dex golve like Machina Recycle Glove. This gave 119 DEX and is a good template for both weapons.
    You can also make the same with pistol combat that also works.

    Another exemple with apu modules.
    Let's see. MC5, CCC, CAG3: 111 PSI (main skill) Do you think that APU modules from 101 to 110 (rare stuff) are more and more harder to use? As they require the same brain and glove poking template, I don't think so.

    I coming to my idea, curve is not the solution, using the following graph should be a better way.

    http://sdrv.ms/19ksU26

    PS: You can see that rifle and apu are one the same graph, that doesn't mean that 100% DPM of rifle is the same absolute value than 100% DPM APU psi modules. Every weapon class would have a different DPM that's why I use percents.
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    My personal hope is that if you wish to use the highest tl weapons and be effective (most damage, used to be called cookie cutter?) you have to sacrifice resists and speed. Maybe formula changes will be required, I don't know for certain.

    As an old example on one end of the scale once over you had say Executioner/Healing Light PEs, all dex chips, black PA, but relatively slow and poor defence, and at the other end you had Pain easer private eyes, excellent resist set ups and runspeed, but not a huge amount of damage (but definitely good enough to get the job done).

    The offset should be, in my opinion, damage vs resists vs speed.

  3. #48
    Registered User Agent L's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khorwin View Post
    YEAH!
    In this way, an APU choosing between TL81 Holy Energy Halo and TL92 Holy Toxic Halo changes damage TYPE not AMOUNT.
    I believe this is very important, both for balancing and gameplay.

  4. #49
    Neocron Veteran Ascension's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent L View Post
    YEAH!
    In this way, an APU choosing between TL81 Holy Energy Halo and TL92 Holy Toxic Halo changes damage TYPE not AMOUNT.
    I believe this is very important, both for balancing and gameplay.
    There needs to be a rare poison beam, to assist with balancing.

  5. #50
    Bitter Old Fart Dribble Joy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerRamjet View Post
    The offset should be, in my opinion, damage vs resists vs speed.
    And back in NC1 you also had the choice of using a lower tl weapon better, by swapping out a dex or str chip for a pc/rc or hc/mc chip.
    I used a moveon over a targetting 3, which another judge user went with. I had higher defences, but less dmg output for the same tl weapon.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dribble Joy View Post
    And back in NC1 you also had the choice of using a lower tl weapon better, by swapping out a dex or str chip for a pc/rc or hc/mc chip.
    I used a moveon over a targetting 3, which another judge user went with. I had higher defences, but less dmg output for the same tl weapon.
    Good point. I liked that system in NC1 and I really do believe this eases the balancing problems we currently have. There was a damage cap fairly easily to reach and players would swap implants, thus creating a balance only with chips mainly. A PE termi would be very good at doing damage, but with more DEX implants and thus, less resists, an Exec/Slasher PE had a better DPS, while the Termi PE would remain very viable with more resists.

    It just makes sense to me, we need a damage cap like there used to be.
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  7. #52

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    @ Bragi

    I made this test yesterday.

  8. #53
    Bitter Old Fart Dribble Joy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neallys View Post
    Good point. I liked that system in NC1 and I really do believe this eases the balancing problems we currently have. There was a damage cap fairly easily to reach and players would swap implants, thus creating a balance only with chips mainly. A PE termi would be very good at doing damage, but with more DEX implants and thus, less resists, an Exec/Slasher PE had a better DPS, while the Termi PE would remain very viable with more resists.

    It just makes sense to me, we need a damage cap like there used to be.
    Actually, in NC1, while there was an easily attainable dmg cap, freq was a different matter (at least for PEs). The Judge user I mentioned got ~178 rpm, while I got 165, so there was variation for each weapon. It wasn't until I got my kami that I capped freq.

  9. #54
    Roger Ramjet Fanboy Number 1 RogerRamjet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dribble Joy View Post
    And back in NC1 you also had the choice of using a lower tl weapon better, by swapping out a dex or str chip for a pc/rc or hc/mc chip.
    I used a moveon over a targetting 3, which another judge user went with. I had higher defences, but less dmg output for the same tl weapon.
    I always thought the end of NC1 weapons and classes were pretty much spot on, maybe APU/PPUs aside. I think capping aiming on a CS was difficult on a tank even with pure HC and PA on. But things like the HC eye didn't exist back then I guess, although the Marine was a much better chip.

  10. #55
    Dream Cast Cursed Shadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascension View Post
    There needs to be a rare poison beam, to assist with balancing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cursed Shadow View Post
    I think that there should be a variety of Rare Halos added to game, as well as other class's weapons which are monster drop only, with a low chance of dropping, with random stats and slots. Holy Toxification (Drop from the Kri'nakh Shaman), Holy Conflagration (Drop from Chaos Queen), and Holy Electrocution (Drop from Apparition in Worm Tunnels).

    **I'm not saying that these are the BEST ideas ever, but they'd keep people busy, and make things interesting whilst the PVP balancing is going on in the background.
    I mentioned this in the past^

    Rare Version of Beam = Direct Damage
    Rare Version of Halos = Stacking DoT

    I think this makes the most sense, and gives APUs another tool for their arsenal.
    Do you want to stack people up to the eyeballs or go for the hard hitting direct damage?

  11. #56
    Dream Cast Cursed Shadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hell-demon View Post
    Can you boost damage on melee? Please?

    Also get rid of the ath minus on melee power armour. It makes no sense.

    1. We need speed

    2. ATH goes towards the damage of melee weapons

    3. No need for a 3 because 1 and 2 were so fookin' good
    Personal Opinion: Melee PA should have a Body Health mallus

    It introduces a problem, like most other PAs do... except for Spies... which is just bollocks and needs sorting out too.

    HC Tanks sacrifice runspeed due to their cannons.
    MC Tanks sacrifice health by wearing a large armor-suit.

    It gives some flexibility and creates a trade-off.

    Thoughts?

  12. #57
    Registered User Agent L's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerRamjet View Post
    I always thought the end of NC1 weapons and classes were pretty much spot on, maybe APU/PPUs aside. I think capping aiming on a CS was difficult on a tank even with pure HC and PA on. But things like the HC eye didn't exist back then I guess, although the Marine was a much better chip.
    Same thoughts here.
    Maybe start balancing project by reverting to this point when most things worked fine.

  13. #58
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    To my knowledge, they had lost all previous versions of the game code from those older points in time.

  14. #59
    Registered User Jabal's Avatar
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    More pistol test :
    Spy PC: 178 WEP: 125 TECH: 133

    FREEZER PISTOL :
    -TL 102 : damage : 197 per hit , Freq : 63
    -TL 61 : damage : 155 , Freq : 66
    -TL 40 : damage : 127 , Freq : 66

    LOW TECH PISTOL :
    -TL 88 wyat earp : damage : 214 , Freq : 85
    -TL 42 wasteland : damage : 162 , Freq : 75 ( low tech seems to cap freqency at less than rare)
    -TL 26 street model : damage : 126 , Freq : 75

    SMG :
    -TL 91 liberator : damage : 82*4 , Freq : 392
    -TL 63 : damage : 71*4 , Freq : 399
    -TL 38 : damage : 56*4 , Freq : 399

    NAIL GUN :
    -TL 107 craftsman : damage : 251 , Freq : 70
    -TL 31 : damage : 155 , Freq : 60
    -TL 17 : damage : 111 , Freq : 60

    GATLING PISTOL :
    -TL 110 : damage : 82*4 , Freq : 411 ( mag size : 32)
    -TL 77 : damage : 74*4 , Freq : 399 ( mag size : 28)
    -TL 59 : damage : 66*4 , freq : 399 ( mag size : 28)
    Pour vivre heureux vivons perché !!

  15. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Torg View Post
    yes. but. weapon damage is not (hasnt been, wont become) related to TL only. theres also your main combat skill (ie RC) and one or two secondary skills (like WEP, TC). the TL graph is just a start, a rough balancing. imho.
    If you pay attention, nore the graph, nore the text mention sub skills value like RC, PC, APU...
    I agree with you, DPM is also related to subskill, the only thing that show this graph is: for a template you won't have to automaticaly choose the hightest TL but you will be able to chose in a panel of 5 or 10 weapons that will have the same DPM. But with another poking template you could choose in another panel of weapons of course the highter is the more you need sub skills to cap.

    One exemple: if you have a 115 DEX template that cap Disruptor, you will do the same damages with a first love or a silent hunter, it will only depend one the way you choose to play or weapon you prefere between all over 110 DEX rifles. But if you choose a template that only reach 109 dex you could choose weapon from 100 to 109 without lose of DPM (only a game play choose).
    The good thing with storing weapon in pool is the possibility to nerf one specific weapon or the entire pool of weapons if the template is to overpowered.
    The good effect on pvp is that peolpe will use different weapon with the same template since how long haven't we see a first love in PVP...

    I can see a question coming. Why using HT weapons if some LT (low tech) have the same DPM? That's one I ask me.
    In fact there's a solution to this problem, actualy the hardest thing to cap is damage value, but handling should be the hardest to cap. And if we follow this, you can make TC weapon easer to handle cap than LT. Why should the handling of LT weapons harder to cap than HT? I will only say recoil, the more a gun have recoil the harder it's to handle.

    In fact, storing weapons by groups would help the balancing, because dev would have to manage with groups and not gun one by one. More over at the end of the balancing it will increase the diversity of weapon used with each template (full or not full main skill). One side effect would be to take out old useless rare from closet.

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