Deployment #1 - Discussion

[Bragi]

2. Some feedback: Right now on Sparta the Weapons are doing high dmg (as you wrote in the thread). But how does it happen, that the weapons are doing nearly zero damage on shielded enemies? Is this of the current changes of burst removed?

Can you be more specific? Are these self-casted shields or foreign-casted? What weapon were you using with what (if any) ammo mod? What type of character were you shooting? What were the values per hit with and without shields?

Has anyone else come across this?

[Haliax]

Melee Combat Weapons

At the moment Melee Combat Weapons are just good in a non buffed 1v1 fight, but not useable for real big fights over time
and with PPU Support.

Yes we are aware of this issue. But as stated in the initial post we are currently looking at 1on1 fights. Once we have that in a good state we will have a look at PPU support issues.

It is not only melee weapons by the way. An APU has nearly the same problem.

[Hell-demon]

Melee damage is worse for some reason. On Terra my TL108 Zsusun sword does 152 damage to a genotoxic mutant. On Sparta with over 240 in melee my sword does a poxy 110 damage. A vein ripper does 108 on sparta and thats tl 97. What is going on?

Also the pop numbers on sparta do not look good. We need more testers and someone who can poke.

Please buff melee damage.

[Droidle]

Yes we are aware of this issue. But as stated in the initial post we are currently looking at 1on1 fights. Once we have that in a good state we will have a look at PPU support issues.

It is not only melee weapons by the way. An APU has nearly the same problem.

Yes .. I know that, also i wrote my idea of a solution for it ...

[Bragi]

Melee damage is worse for some reason. On Terra my TL108 Zsusun sword does 152 damage to a genotoxic mutant. On Sparta with over 240 in melee my sword does a poxy 110 damage. A vein ripper does 108 on sparta and thats tl 97. What is going on?

The DPM values for some of the melee weapons were reduced to bring them in line with the other weapon types (the Zsuzun was doing almost as much DPM as the Paw of Bear and considerably more than most Heavy, Rifle and Pistol weapons of the same TL), plus the correction modifiers were reset so we can look at things from a fresh perspective. As mentioned, the main issue with melee is not down to their damage output and from what we have seen 1 vs 1 they seem to be performing well (though more testing is welcome).

PvE damage will be dealt with in a later phase.

However, that is the sort of data we need to see. Seeing how steep the DPM curve is in practice is a key part of this. Could you post what dmg% and frequency values you get on those two weapons? Fresh instant damage values against a player with equal piercing and poison resist/armour would be good too.

[Hell-demon]

The DPM values for some of the melee weapons were reduced to bring them in line with the other weapon types (the Zsuzun was doing almost as much DPM as the Paw of Bear and considerably more than most Heavy, Rifle and Pistol weapons of the same TL), plus the correction modifiers were reset so we can look at things from a fresh perspective. As mentioned, the main issue with melee is not down to their damage output and from what we have seen 1 vs 1 they seem to be performing well (though more testing is welcome).

PvE damage will be dealt with in a later phase.

However, that is the sort of data we need to see. Seeing how steep the DPM curve is in practice is a key part of this. Could you post what dmg% and frequency values you get on those two weapons? Fresh instant damage values against a player with equal piercing and poison resist/armour would be good too.

Okay I'll test out a few weapons and post the data but I can't do much without my mc5 chip being poked. We need an automatic poking machine or something otherwise we can't test some setups. We need pokers and we need more people testing stuff.

If I could offer my 2 cents on the matter of melee it would be it does need a damage boost. In 1 on 1 fights it may be good but pistol users, rifles (especially), heavy and psi can all dictate range. Melee have to get up close and personal and by the time the distance has been closed a few shots have already been fired.

Melee also degrades super fast. In some cases it damages with every swing. Frequency of attacks is off on some weapons. A vein ripper attack twice in the span it takes to swing a sword (which seems reasonable), but brass knuckles attack at the same rate as a sword or claw. Perhaps tweak the smaller lighter weapons to have faster speeds but degrade faster? I don't know - just putting it out there.

Also when the time comes please remove the malus of athletics from higher tier power armour. Melee users need speed.

I'll post some stats soon just need a fecking poke.

Edit: Reverse Lom salesman sells nothing. Please fix =)

[Ascension]

can we not just set the poke subskill requirement to 0 so anyone can poke?

[Hell-demon]

Finally got poked! My mistake on the frequency of knuckles they are quite fast. So no need to tweek them. Okay lets begin:

Character Stats:

116 STR

Melee Combat: 242 (150 without gear and drugs)

Weapon Lore: 87 (85 without gear)

Endurance: 56 (40 without gear)

Agility: 130 (100 without gear)

Ath: 92 (75 without gear)

I believe those are all the skills that affect melee combat stats (might be wrong about ATH)

So onto weapons. All of these are artifact rares:

Paw of Tiger (TL 80):

DAMAGE: 160
AIMING: 250
SHOT FREQUENCY: 83 +8


Perforator (TL 82):

DAMAGE: 159
AIMING: 250
SHOT FREQUENCY: 115 +16


Peacemaker (TL 94):

DAMAGE: 150
AIMING: 221
SHOT FREQUENCY: 69 +9

Vein Ripper (TL 97):

DAMAGE: 148
AIMING: 215
SHOT FREQUENCY: 95 +10


Blade of Ceres (TL 100):

DAMAGE: 147
AIMING: 210
SHOT FREQUENCY: 64 +4

Dentist (TL 104):

DAMAGE: 145
AIMING: 203
SHOT FREQUENCY: 127 +28

Hurler King Knuckles (TL 108):

DAMAGE: 143
AIMING: 197
SHOT FREQUENCY: 126 +27

Zsusun (TL 108):

DAMAGE: 143
AIMING: 197
SHOT FREQUENCY: 74 +8

Paw of Bear (TL 113):

DAMAGE: 141
AIMING: 191
SHOT FREQUENCY:81 +6



That's it. I will test out high tech in a bit and possibly pvp.

[Satan2k2]

Can you be more specific? Are these self-casted shields or foreign-casted? What weapon were you using with what (if any) ammo mod? What type of character were you shooting? What were the values per hit with and without shields?

Has anyone else come across this?

Foreign casted shields (self casted are even more uber ) and heal.

Weapons used were: Ray of Last Hope (Dunno) from Spy, Cursed Soul (Radiation) from Tank, Devourer (War Gas) from Tank, Fire Apocalypse from APU

All fighting free for all. But duel between both Tanks and Tank with Spy and Spy with APU also happend.

Damage:
Devourer vs Spy: w/o shields about 140 dmg + DoT, with shields/heal about 30 - 40 dmg + DoT
Fire Apoc vs Spy: w/o shields about 70-80 dmg, with shields/heal about 20 - 30 dmg
Devourer vs Tank: w/o shields about 110 dmg + DoT, with shields/heal about 30 - 40 dmg + DoT
Coursed Soul vs Tank: w/o shields i dunno anymore but about 60 - 70 per salve, but with shields/heal 20 - 30 dmg per salve
Fire Apoc vs Tank: w/o shields about 50 - 60 dmg, with shields/heal nearly nothing

Be aware that the dmg is with heal proc.

[Bragi]

Could you try that again without heals?

Helldemon: Could you test instant damages of all those weapons against a player with equal resist values and no armour?
P.S. We would like to solve the range issue melee users have without resorting to simply increasing their damage, that will come later though, nothing is sacred however, so we may have to increase it anyway. The current focus is on how the weapons themselves behave with relation to each other as a base to work from rather than individual class balance. It WILL be addressed at a later stage.
We are keenly aware of the degradation issue too and can assure you it's on the to-do list.

[Hell-demon]

Could you try that again without heals?

Helldemon: Could you test instant damages of all those weapons against a player with equal resist values and no armour?
P.S. We would like to solve the range issue melee users have without resorting to simply increasing their damage, that will come later though, nothing is sacred however, so we may have to increase it anyway. The current focus is on how the weapons themselves behave with relation to each other as a base to work from rather than individual class balance. It WILL be addressed at a later stage.
We are keenly aware of the degradation issue too and can assure you it's on the to-do list.

That will be slightly tricky as the sparta pop is low and I dunno if anyone will be a human punching bag for the sack of testing. But we shall see.

So what do you want exactly? Should I fight someone with 50 in all resists and no armour?

[Hell-demon]

Zoltan helped me out. Here's what I got:

Character Stats:

116 STR

Melee Combat: 242 (150 without gear and drugs)

Weapon Lore: 87 (85 without gear)

Endurance: 56 (40 without gear)

Agility: 130 (100 without gear)

Ath: 92 (75 without gear)

Tech Combat: 106

Following rares were tested on Zoltan who has 255 in all skills and resists (no armour). I hit him once with each rare.:

Paw of Tiger (TL 80):

DAMAGE: 160
AIMING: 250
SHOT FREQUENCY: 83 +8

Initial DMG when hit: 19

Perforator (TL 82):

DAMAGE: 159
AIMING: 250
SHOT FREQUENCY: 115 +16

Initial DMG when hit: 16

Peacemaker (TL 94):

DAMAGE: 150
AIMING: 221
SHOT FREQUENCY: 69 +9

Initial DMG when hit: 18

Vein Ripper (TL 97):

DAMAGE: 148
AIMING: 215
SHOT FREQUENCY: 95 +10

Initial DMG when hit: 24

Blade of Ceres (TL 100):

DAMAGE: 147
AIMING: 210
SHOT FREQUENCY: 64 +4

Initial DMG when hit: 25

Dentist (TL 104):

DAMAGE: 145
AIMING: 203
SHOT FREQUENCY: 127 +28

Initial DMG when hit: 15

Hurler King Knuckles (TL 108):

DAMAGE: 143
AIMING: 197
SHOT FREQUENCY: 126 +27

Initial DMG when hit: 15

Zsusun (TL 108):

DAMAGE: 143
AIMING: 197
SHOT FREQUENCY: 74 +8

Initial DMG when hit: 23

Paw of Bear (TL 113):

DAMAGE: 141
AIMING: 191
SHOT FREQUENCY:81 +6

Initial DMG when hit: 20

Thunderbolt (TL 110):

DAMAGE:142
AIMING: 249
SHOT FREQUENCY: 77 +17

Initial DMG when hit: 15

Devils Grace (TL115):

DAMAGE: 139
AIMING: 237
SHOT FREQUENCY: 78 +8

Initial DMG when hit: 20

[Hell-demon]

Testes again on the aptly named Punching Bag. He has 50 in all resists. Here is the copy paste from my notes in word.

Paw of Tiger (TL 80):

DAMAGE: 160
AIMING: 250
SHOT FREQUENCY: 83 +8

46


Perforator (TL 82):

DAMAGE: 159
AIMING: 250
SHOT FREQUENCY: 115 +16

33


Peacemaker (TL 94):

DAMAGE: 150
AIMING: 221
SHOT FREQUENCY: 69 +9

61

Vein Ripper (TL 97):

DAMAGE: 148
AIMING: 215
SHOT FREQUENCY: 95 +10

44

Blade of Ceres (TL 100):

DAMAGE: 147
AIMING: 210
SHOT FREQUENCY: 64 +4

61

Dentist (TL 104):

DAMAGE: 145
AIMING: 203
SHOT FREQUENCY: 127 +28

35

Hurler King Knuckles (TL 108):

DAMAGE: 143
AIMING: 197
SHOT FREQUENCY: 126 +27

36

Zsusun (TL 108):

DAMAGE: 143
AIMING: 197
SHOT FREQUENCY: 74 +8

54

Paw of Bear (TL 113):

DAMAGE: 141
AIMING: 191
SHOT FREQUENCY:81 +6

49

Thunder bolt

34

Devils Grace
49

[Bragi]

Exactly what I need! I'll set about deciphering this to see where we are.

Dear everyone, getting similar data from other weapon types would be great. If you can, include the top level non-rare (and epic if applicable) version with the rare version (so long as it's TL75+) so I can get an better idea of how the DPM curve is being affected by sub-skills.

[Hell-demon]

Ya welcome. I will accept an mc5 on titan as a reward. Anything else I need to do?