rebuilding the PvE experience

[Mr_Snow]

Been any more thought on the dev side to removing the DoY units (y troopers etc)? The North Eastern part of the map was always my favourite and it was instantly ruined with the short sighted decision to flood it with those units.

Effectively, 1/5th of the map was ruined for no good gameplay reason that I can discern.

[eNTi]

Been any more thought on the dev side to removing the DoY units (y troopers etc)? The North Eastern part of the map was always my favourite and it was instantly ruined with the short sighted decision to flood it with those units.

Effectively, 1/5th of the map was ruined for no good gameplay reason that I can discern.

They were fun once when DoY was about to hit... it made the game world more dangerous. Now they are just a nuisance and I think that their drop rate not nearly reflects their danger level. Currently I'd say just remove them all. I always thought they were just some kind of event not a permanent part of the game.

[Doc Holliday]

This thread and the map torg did are both excellent. I have been having this exact thought recently about reverting/revamping the entire playing field in terms of pve.

It is far and away the singular biggest impact to the server and the community as a whole. It impacts absolutely everybody and in my eyes should have been a priority to fix from the get go.

Torg I love the map. I know we argue over a lot and never see eye to eye but on the opening post in this thread and that map i completely agree it should be redone as it was before it got fucked up in nc2. I think it sums it up perfectly. Filling in more of the spaces or making more viable levelling spots zone by zone would be something that could be included in the revamp.

I would like to suggest a community project to actually set about fixing this. I realise we cant expect there to be new caves etc designed as im sure its a monumental undertaking and also there are sooooooooooo many under utilised caves and storage areas in the game currently that to make more would not be doing them any justice.

Imo caves should be for teams (preferably with a healer but not utterly necessary if people are careful) and the open wasteland areas should be for solo runners or tech farmers etc.

Most importantly I think this could actually be a project the community could undertake to "map" out the zones and see whats out there in the wastes and can be converted feasibly (ie spawns altered etc for the mobs and mob density) in to actual viable levelling zones.

I would love to see the return of the warbots and mechanical mobs up in the j_1-7 areas especially northstar uplink etc. The sand areas can be hoppers etc or even add in more worms and what not around the swamp parts. It really depends what fits.

I would also like to be a part of a project if this were to happen to get this ball rolling as like i said i can absolutely see it happening if enough people get on with screenshots etc and suggestions and map it all out and do the ground work or the "heavy lifting" as it were and then pass it over to the NST to implement.

What I do want to know before we go forward on this and if its at all possible is can it be done without an absolute nightmare on the coding side @Trivaldi/Zoltan/NST because this is something that NEEDS to happen.

I have a ton of ideas about how to do it but need to know if its not all for nothing if it cant be implemented once the work is done.

[eNTi]

What I do want to know before we go forward on this and if its at all possible is can it be done without an absolute nightmare on the coding side @Trivaldi/Zoltan/NST because this is something that NEEDS to happen.

I have a ton of ideas about how to do it but need to know if its not all for nothing if it cant be implemented once the work is done.

We all have and had tons of ideas in the past. Sadly those have mostly been ignored or put on some imaginary list with random order that changes on random intervals. I won't put any more work into collecting and reporting issues before I don't get a clear cut answer if they will ever be worked on. No point filling up the brain port with more stuff. It's already a black hole and if you look into past threads that were made years ago you will probably find lots of your current ideas being talked about only to vanish into the void never to be seen again... just like this thread i dug up from a few years back. Just look at the date of the first post. There is no shortage of ideas... there rarely is. There is a shortage of man power to put them into place and a shortage of communication that puts those ideas on a road map on in the spot light. Same really goes for all but the most pressing bugs.

I know I'm utterly negative here but I don't get the feeling anything is really changing. The NST has it's hands full with their own stuff already. They are seemingly struggling to get some much needed infrastructure out of the door for what feels like years. I hope that with the advent of those tools we will see many issues resolved in a more timely fashion. What I don't see is any relevant time frame in which that will actually happen. Whenever you create something to help getting done some manual labor you need to think if the time spent on the automation will actually have an impact on the overall development. The NST clearly thinks so... and they really don't have much of a choice any more unless they want to throw away years of hard labor. I certainly wouldn't.

[Doc Holliday]

We all have and had tons of ideas in the past. Sadly those have mostly been ignored or put on some imaginary list with random order that changes on random intervals. I won't put any more work into collecting and reporting issues before I don't get a clear cut answer if they will ever be worked on. No point filling up the brain port with more stuff. It's already a black hole and if you look into past threads that were made years ago you will probably find lots of your current ideas being talked about only to vanish into the void never to be seen again... just like this thread i dug up from a few years back. Just look at the date of the first post. There is no shortage of ideas... there rarely is. There is a shortage of man power to put them into place and a shortage of communication that puts those ideas on a road map on in the spot light. Same really goes for all but the most pressing bugs.

I know I'm utterly negative here but I don't get the feeling anything is really changing. The NST has it's hands full with their own stuff already. They are seemingly struggling to get some much needed infrastructure out of the door for what feels like years. I hope that with the advent of those tools we will see many issues resolved in a more timely fashion. What I don't see is any relevant time frame in which that will actually happen. Whenever you create something to help getting done some manual labor you need to think if the time spent on the automation will actually have an impact on the overall development. The NST clearly thinks so... and they really don't have much of a choice any more unless they want to throw away years of hard labor. I certainly wouldn't.

I think the negativity is welcome in a way. What I am trying to suggest is, if we can get a simple green light on what im proposing, we do all the manual work ourselves. Get it all compiled in to one giant project and then hand it over to be input in to the game. Take the labour off their hands and into ours so we can actually pitch in and help out.

I agree on the sentiment the brainport feels like a place where ideas go to die. It absolutely does. What i have been mulling recently is very similar to what torgs opening post and subsequent posts were about. I looked at the date straight away and realised it was 3 years ago.

what my intention is mate is to go above the discussion stage and take some affirmative action and get this rolling IF it can be done. By affirmative action i mean gathering a group of willing volunteers and organising the changes that have been discussed and, using the tools at our disposal, drawing them up in a way that all that needs doing is the person with the power to implement it doing just that. Meaning zoltan. We do all the hard work and he has to simply edit things inside the game itself. I realise it wont be that easy, it never is but at least we go beyond the discussion stage and get stuck in to making a change. or at least attempting to.

Worth a shot?

[William Antrim]

You need the greenlight from the shot caller. Until you get that it's just pixels on a screen.

[Bragi]

I actually joined the team on the content side initially and one of the first things I did was propose a mob redistribution concept.
Unfortunately I was only a 'Lab Assistant' without the ability to actually implement anything, leaving people like Trivaldi to do the work (which isn't too hard, but is time consuming), alas personal issues at the time, all the other problems the team has dealt with over the years and me moving to balance, meant that it sat gathering dust, with only a partial realisation of the TG canyon mobs/caves reaching PTS.

besides that i'd love to see aggressors removed from city cellars, so low-mid chars would be moved to the outzone and the grasslands.

Indeed. The idea of having aggies in Plaza always seemed a bit odd to me. The proposal basically had mob level increase with distance from Via Rosso, with mutants only starting to appear at PP. The peak would be in the mid regions of OZ, before falling back again the closer to the starter apts in OZ1.

sadly both grasslands (the south) and swamps (the southwest) are perfect for low-mids, but totally underused.

Let's compare the OZ/Ind A Storage areas with the Mutant Trap and The Bunker (there are tons of bunkers in NC, but as most of us know, there is only one The Bunker) and what could be done to fix them to make them equally viable levelling areas (if for different types of players if not for all players).
The Storage areas suffer most from being far from allbuyers, P1 and a 'safe' genrep.
The Trap takes a while to run to from the safety of the OZ station, even if there's an allbuyer nearby.
The Bunker on the other hand has a nearby (comparatively) safe GR, albuyer and handy cover that the actually dangerous mobs can't get inside.
The main problem is The Bunker. Getting to MB is not the ordeal it used to be thanks to the Quad and the Observer. GR costs cap out at 4k.

Then there's the issue of mob level diversity. A harder to reach leveling spot might have mobs closer together as somewhere for someone to level more efficiently (and perhaps have poorer loot). Somewhere easier to reach might have a wider spread but better non-xp rewards.

i agree that doy bots dont make a lot of sense these days and could be removed without being missed.

They were fun once when DoY was about to hit... it made the game world more dangerous. Now they are just a nuisance and I think that their drop rate not nearly reflects their danger level. Currently I'd say just remove them all. I always thought they were just some kind of event not a permanent part of the game.

I don't mind them as a 'remnant' feature in the northern areas. Having no reason to hunt them doesn't help though (something I maaaay have been thinking upon for the implants/armours).

I've asked the team how much of the old proposal I can show you guys to pour over.

[Doc Holliday]

In order to make a proper go of this I would split the task in to sections. Neocron City could be one with all its different zones. Then the wastelands but that would also need to be subdivided in to sectors.

I think disregarding any sector with an OP in it for the initial analysis would be the best and also any one with a cave entrance of some kind as well as any that are deemed to be acceptable in current state (cycrow etc are probably best left alone).

Then its a case of going around each zone and just having a look and seeing what can fit there and would look right and fit with that part of the world but make for a good levelling zone or if not actual grind spot then at least would fit with the world for the purpose of the lore. Dont have to make amazing spots in every zone maybe one in every 9 tile quadrant or somewhere similar.

I REALLY REALLY think that general mob damage is a thing that needs to be looked at (grim percs ) but thats a larger part of the balancing project no doubt. However, it really does need to be adjusted as soon as possible even if its a temporary adjustment because you cant have rifle and hc users being able to go out and farm shit in the wastes and everyone else with short range (pistol/melee/psi) being stuck in a cave or regants legacy because they have such gimped range (among other factors).

At the same time I think the damage in regants legacy would need to be increased to make it so you cant just wander down with your tl20 grenade launcher and leech like a boss to get to cap. That undoubtedly requires work on the code side but would be a critical piece of this entire project.

However its not a barrier to progress so this could still be gotten started with and then come back and try and look at the damage etc and its impact on the revamped zones at a later date.

[eNTi]

As a side note: I don't think it is possible to reduce the damage mobs do. You'd first have to fix the myriad issues that led to that "fix": Poor AI and otherwise glitchy engine issues for example. These can't be fixed imho. You'd need to switch engine (UE4 anyone ).

[Siuko]

UE4 Neocron now that would be something lol....

[Celt]

I don't mind them as a 'remnant' feature in the northern areas.

They add nothing of value, and removed substantial value. There are too many, they are too powerful, and they removed a significant section of the map from general use. Even if they are given rares to drop, leave them in tunnels and return the gameworld (albeit rejigged slightly and with changed spawn rates) to how it used to be. Not out of nostalgia, but because an area with a unique identity and *feel* was utterly ruined by a short-sighted and hamfisted deision a very long time ago.

[Doc Holliday]

You'd need to switch engine (UE4 anyone ).

Pipedream but a damn good one. Would be great if kirk could allow this to happen and do a full blown port to UE4 of NC. Hell i would put in as much money as i can possibly afford to help the support team get that going.

[eNTi]

Pipedream but a damn good one. Would be great if kirk could allow this to happen and do a full blown port to UE4 of NC. Hell i would put in as much money as i can possibly afford to help the support team get that going.

You have to dream big. It we be so great if we could free the IP from Kirk and make the project open source. One man can dream...

[Celt]

'Porting to UE4' can't happen, almost everything would be needed to be created from scratch and the vast majority of the background architecture created from scratch.

It would be creating a new game using NC as inspiration. Unless your funds number in the several of millions, they might as well be nothing.

Look at the struggles that the tens of projects launched to recreate Morrowind in Oblivion (and when that didn't happen, to Skyrim) and then Oblivion in Skyrim.

Recreating a game in the same (but upgraded) engine by one of the most dedicated fanbases, has resulted in the sum total of....nothing even near completion to show for nigh on 10 years of work.

[eNTi]

'Porting to UE4' can't happen, almost everything would be needed to be created from scratch and the vast majority of the background architecture created from scratch.

It would be creating a new game using NC as inspiration. Unless your funds number in the several of millions, they might as well be nothing.

Look at the struggles that the tens of projects launched to recreate Morrowind in Oblivion (and when that didn't happen, to Skyrim) and then Oblivion in Skyrim.

Recreating a game in the same (but upgraded) engine by one of the most dedicated fanbases, has resulted in the sum total of....nothing even near completion to show for nigh on 10 years of work.

I beg to differ... have you seen OpenMW? The engine makes Morrowind fully playable. They of course work with the original assets... which could be difficult if not impossible for NC. We would need a tool to convert everything. Of course it would take years if it could be done at all. But not trying is a sure fire way to fail.