1. #16

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    I love that other players are also concerned about the PVE game


    So I will start with selected zones and tell you what i like / dislike / would improve, just to sum all of my chit chat up and give you some more ideas. Ready?


    J_01
    The most used low-midlevel-zone which we learned to allure. I had so many beautiful moments there, so many characters leveled up like hell. It was the first zone i ever encountered an Warbot. There should be 3 to 4 spawnpoints of them (just warbots, nothing else like spiders or that mean things). As a team you could simply draw one to the bunker and share the experience with other players, together with the loot (some of the teammates may hack, you don't).
    The bunker is an awesome idea, which can be used from x/2 until x/40 or even later if you prefer to stay there. Also there were always players around which helped each other. Back in the days i started an PPU character just for supporting other players at the bunker.

    J_02
    Also very nice with the beachhouse for midlevel players (more solostuff - i love the Goguardian there) and very good for Warbot hunting.

    J_03, J_04
    Totally underused my be. I don't like the terrain and the spawnpoints of the enemies, which leads to high deathrates. Maybe just me, dunno. If the spawn was put more apart and those stupid spiderbots would not spawn over my spy while hacking, that would make those zones useable for me.

    I_06
    Used by me for the Mutant Pit (i love it) and for Warbot hunting with a car (quad prefered for cover).

    Zones with Hoverbots, DoY units, ceres units and that other crap:
    I don't use them. There is too high, too clustered spawn. I usually walk into the sync backwards, ready to jumpstart to the sync again in case of enemies. Reduce the amount of enemies, yet put 4 to 6 spawnpoints up where they spawn in groups up to 3, also grouped by type and level (rank). Give them rarepart drops, set up an house with a goguardian inside and watch players have fun alone or in teams

    G_08
    This zone was my ABSOLUTE favourite back then. No matter what character or weapon, i could hunt and level in this zone for weeks without getting tired. I love decayed horrors and decayed brutes. Also their spawn was something like vehicle parts, armor parts and rare parts (tech parts). There were no annoying hoverbots, ceres units, doy units or even warbots (some were there as i recall, but few). We used to go there as a team, yet split up to cover more ground and share the loot.
    For years i'm asking to make this particular zone useable again. It was always crowded and always fun.

    A_08
    Just to jump to another not-used zone. Why should i use it? Alright, when i need to walk through there.. gee, i could take another map, not missing anything here. Same for 80 % of the map. There is no real use for those maps without content, bad spawn, bad loot, nothing.

    I tried to use those unused zones very oftenly, yet everytime i tried i came to the conclusion, that the crowded zones are kinda more fun, faster to level at and get more stuff (loot). Let's say a random zone.. errr... E_05. What the heck is there? I don't need to go there.

    Put some special mobs in every quadrupled grid, like A_06, A_07, B_06, B_07 there will spawn some 40/40 ionized spiderpigs that will drop special loot for building TL 60 weapons. In another grid, put 60/60 burning launchers which will drop something other of use. In general, there should be an (very good) option to visit (like the bunker), and an (not so good) alternative (like Battledome launchers). The good option will always catch fire and be populated by players.

    Another zone that was very well populated before getting nerfed:
    K_15, also known as Escador Oasis. There used to be a Generep there, before DoY was implemented. It was a very very nice leveling place, populated, with a beautiful landscaping and very awesome enemies.



    To sum that stuff all up:
    80 % of the zones are under- / not used by me because of lack of content, usefulnes, bad loot, etc.
    There are very good and populated zones, like J_01, I_06, F_12, J_10 (only inside El Farid), F_13, E_13.
    Think of them zones like they were in NC 1: G_08, K_15, J_01 and why they were so populated --> Copy & Paste to other sectors --> done.

  2. #17
    Roger Ramjet Fanboy Number 1 RogerRamjet's Avatar
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    If the DoY warzone changes happen Escodar definitely needs a GR again.

    There also open areas out the back of Soliko and Eastgate unpopulated by mobs, which would make an excellent place to drop some spawns (infact most OP zones seem to lack significant high level mobs that are actually huntable. Grant and Cycrow have good fire mobs, Malstrond has hoverbots, Ceres Mine has Y reps but you may as well not bother).

  3. #18
    Dream Cast Cursed Shadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerRamjet View Post
    If the DoY warzone changes happen Escodar definitely needs a GR again.

    There also open areas out the back of Soliko and Eastgate unpopulated by mobs, which would make an excellent place to drop some spawns (infact most OP zones seem to lack significant high level mobs that are actually huntable. Grant and Cycrow have good fire mobs, Malstrond has hoverbots, Ceres Mine has Y reps but you may as well not bother).
    IIRC (correct me if not) Gabanium has already been mentioned for Warbots, Decayed Horrors, Hoverbots, and Brutes. That's lots of trophy hunting for one zone!

    More zones need to be like this, trophy loot style or alternative requirements focus.

    It would also be cool if there were alternatives to some of the caves, perhaps an outdoor version of the Crystal Cave Queen to make use of a huge section of an underpopulated zone.

    To note some monsters I would like to see a super-high level awesome versions of the following monsers:
    Sandcrawlers (I always thought a huge version of a Sandcrawler awaited me in the Wurm Tunnels)
    Octopus mobs and Tentacles - they're a pain, they should be higher rank, for high level hunting (Perhaps they drop chemicals for rare build drugs?)
    Poisonous Plants - Would be nice to see some 100+ ranked. (Perhaps they drop chemicals for rare build drugs?)
    Aggressors and Launchers - This is pretty simple. Take most loved monsters, make ridiculously powerful version.

  4. #19
    Roger Ramjet Fanboy Number 1 RogerRamjet's Avatar
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    You found the only OP that has decent mobs that I forgot

  5. #20
    Registered User Agent L's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trivaldi View Post
    Perhaps accessible is the wrong word. There's a delicate balance at play here. Those who have played the game for years (the vast majority of our player base) and have always been able to walk from Neocron to Military Base as a ~/10, would absolutely crucify us for any attempt made to prevent those low level characters from traversing the Wasteland. My opinion above is to simply make them work harder than they do now in exchange for more to do once they get to a higher level.
    I'm referring to the current state of testserver. Roads are devoid of danger, except occasional faction guards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivaldi View Post
    When did I suggest removing that danger?
    Here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Trivaldi View Post
    The Wastelands should be interesting and accessible for low and mid level characters
    Plus it's not just your opinion, this is what already happened on TS and what I am trying to stop before it hits retail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivaldi View Post
    Every area of the Wasteland already has low level (and in most cases medium level) encounters.
    Well, in theory yes, F12 indeed has /5 level creepers. However in practice, they are too close to /120 Grim Persecutor spawn to be accessible to low level players
    Quote Originally Posted by Trivaldi View Post
    Time would only be spent creating more higher level challenges which are desperately needed.
    WTF?!? How can you even say that, despite the evidence that the time has ALREADY been wasted on making many Wastelands sectors accessible to noobs and less challenging to high level players by "Increased the spread of high level monsters to prevent clumping"

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivaldi View Post
    So you'd prefer I didn't fix the broken dungeons available in Military Base, Tech Haven and the Canyon Facility and make those areas of the game actually usable?
    Nope, I never said a word against fixing what's broken. My only problem is "fixing" things that are NOT broken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivaldi View Post
    I've not stated I think new low characters should be able to level in the Wastelands, I'm actually suggesting we make it more difficult for them to survive out there but not sledge hammer it to the point we piss off our more experienced players.?
    You're say one thing, but someone does the exact opposite. It is simply not possible for a noob to traverse zones near canyon on retail, but no prob on TS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivaldi View Post
    A key counter argument is that most characters spend their medium levels at Military Base.
    I don't understand this. I believe it's an argument I am making - that players follow very narrow tracks and any attempts to create other leveling areas are simply wasted. You either make it not as good as bunker, so noone will level there, or something better than bunker, so everyone will level there. You can change how the tracks go, but you can't make a junction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivaldi View Post
    Players entirely new to Neocron, who choose a faction outside the City, should be able to level naturally in their starting locations.
    An this is the point where you're entirely wrong. To level, new players need access to poke/res/cst services which are not available anywhere but Plaza1.
    Factions starting outside NC are "advanced" factions, choosing them means you're giving yourself a handicap in the field of leveling. You start by begging for taxi. Your gain however is high symp in a faction you want to be your endgame faction.
    There is a cost and there is a profit. It's balanced. All you need to do is to move starterapts back to where they belong.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trivaldi View Post
    If someone tells them to go to Plaza 1 and hop on the normal levelling tracks so be it, but that shouldn't mean they're knackered just because they thought Twilight Guardian or City Mercs (or previously Fallen Angels) sounded cool.
    Even with access to best leveling fields, they're still knackered with nothing but shabby TL3 knife.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trivaldi View Post
    First of all I have to thank you for testing that experience, this has been a guinea pig for working on the rest of the Wasteland. You'll notice I've taken some of your feedback on board and this should lead to some changes in the next test patch or two. I certainly do not consider trying something new to be a waste of time, especially under my remit within the team.
    Thanks for your thanks, and sorry fore being so hostile. But messing up with popular hunting ground IS a time wasted. And I am very sorry about that, because I consider your time priceless and non-replenishable resource.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivaldi View Post
    Please list your concerns regarding the contradictions of the lore, it is certainly never my intention to deviate from that. Evolve it and follow the paths set out by my predecessors yes but never deviate to the point of causing a contradiction. Neocron's lore and atmosphere is the reason I voluntarily continue to put so many hours into the game, if an oversight has violated that lore, I'd like to know your thoughts on where that oversight has occurred.
    I believe the whole concept of making Wastelands safer to noobs contradicts this lore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivaldi View Post
    Cycrow and its surrounding Canyon Sectors still work, they are just different to the roundabout you've been riding in those zones for the last half decade. Those zones were a lot more like the proposed changes in R#184 prior to the release of Neocron 2. After so many years another bit of a refresh is certainly needed. As far as I can see, a lot of people have grown tired of playing exactly the same game over and over.
    Look at us. Who are your players? We're old geezers, with average NC history about 10 years. We're not your regular customer base, we're like Mr Monk. We don't like changes. In fact, if you see the popular requests, most of them is asking to bring the old stuff back.
    I've already said that "preventing clumping" made firemobs spawn ridiculously easy, combine that with CRP's high availability due to dedicated GR and you've just created new cookie cutter, overcrowded in days.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trivaldi View Post
    You'll have to explain that bit for me. None of what I said above aims to negatively impact either of those two groups. Low level and high level PvE are two sides of the same coin. Not separate ones.
    I interpreted "one coin" is when they happen in one place. As on TS atm.
    What I meant is it's very hard to balance each one on their own. Make it too easy and rewarding and everyone flocks there, deserting rest of the world. Make it slightly too unrewarding and noone will ever appear there. This is what I meant - it's extremely hard to balance newb and capped areas each on their own. Having something that is attractive to capped players while still accessible for noobs to traverse (like new F13) is imho too difficult to even think about thinking about it. That's why I believe you should keep the coins separate for a while. Treat leveling and hunting players as separate kinds, observe and analyse their needs separatelly. I do not believe anyone can successfully spread leveling crowd. Once someone learns the aggies/launchers/el farid/regants way, he's lost.

    Leveling in NC is very fast and easy compared to many other games. It's not broken, so you should not worry about it. People can wander through sewers, IND A, OZ and nearby Wastelands - if they want. Noob experience is already in place, it is working, we just don't have any noobs for you to witness it working.

    Bottom line:
    Keep noobs in Plaza. This is where they belong. They won't spend much time being a low level, and when they cap, they'll need the rest of gameworld, dangerous and challenging.

  6. #21
    Registered User Marx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent L View Post
    Noob experience is already in place, it is working, we just don't have any noobs for you to witness it working.
    In part because the godawful new player experience runs off those that do experiment - the only ones who seem to stick around are the ones lucky enough to find a person or group that is actually helpful. Which is pretty rare.

    My "new player experience" on return lasted a day or two because I understand the mechanics and the best way to exploit them. Because lets not kid ourselves, the most effective means of leveling often seem counterintuititive (e.g. AOEing the shit out of dungeons) to the way the game portrays itself to be ("here, look at this rifle and pistol and tradeskills!").

    El Farid and Regants are the primary mid to end leveling points for everyone - why? Because the rest of the world sucks shit.

  7. #22
    Xpertz William Antrim's Avatar
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    Make outposts give their bonuses again regardless of the GR settings.

    Put lots of high level mobs into OP zones.

    Put mid and low level mobs into NON-op zones.

    Make the various dungeons have some form of "level range" with advice to runners about the type of levels they should be to enter said caves.

    Balance the damage with risk/reward.

    Make PVE more like NC1 essentially because we had lots of places that we could solo/group up in back then and it was fun because you met people in the wastes and sometimes you made friends and sometimes you got a new pair of boots.
    "dulce et decorum est pro patria mori"

  8. #23
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    The wastes should only be viable leveling for /20 and above. That said, traversing the wastes should be /2 friendly. The wastes should be dangerous, but there should be some sense and logic to it. The pathways in a zone should be clear, not because that is the nice thing to do, but because human nature says they should be. No one would spend the time to create a trail if it is plagued with life-threatening, laser shooting, doy buttholes.

  9. #24
    Roger Ramjet Fanboy Number 1 RogerRamjet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William Antrim View Post
    Make PVE more like NC1 essentially because we had lots of places that we could solo/group up in back then and it was fun because you met people in the wastes and sometimes you made friends and sometimes you got a new pair of boots.
    Fully agree. I remember spending a week when I first started on Saturn at a house on a road out towards Gabanium, with a random runner i'd encountered out there. One of my favourite levelling experiences in game.

    I do agree with some of the above quotes that the wastes need to be a scary/dangerous place for noobs though. There isn't a player out there who doesn't remember the first time they went through the blast doors at the OZ station (Sir Ramic Hobbs led me to the mutant pit at Jeriko, and logged off. I saw a Launcher Cyclops and ran all the way back to the station!). Or the first time they fought their way to the Canyon Facility, or Military Base, and not forgetting the gates of DoY after negotiating zones and zones of DoY bots, looking upon it, that was an amazing experience!

  10. #25
    Registered User Agent L's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marx View Post
    In part because the godawful new player experience runs off those that do experiment - the only ones who seem to stick around are the ones lucky enough to find a person or group that is actually helpful. Which is pretty rare.
    Finding any person is difficult. If you do, chances he'll be helpful are close to 1. That's what I am bashing devs for: trying to scatter noobs even farther apart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marx View Post
    My "new player experience" on return lasted a day or two because I understand the mechanics and the best way to exploit them. Because lets not kid ourselves, the most effective means of leveling often seem counterintuititive (e.g. AOEing the shit out of dungeons) to the way the game portrays itself to be ("here, look at this rifle and pistol and tradeskills!").
    From my experience, AoE is usually "teh shit" in every game. But yeah, NC has a very long history of starter setups designed to fuck ppl up. Like "let's give a ctor 20 res, he will definitely find this most useful".

    Quote Originally Posted by Marx View Post
    El Farid and Regants are the primary mid to end leveling points for everyone - why? Because the rest of the world sucks shit.
    Not really, this is just for powerleveling secondary toons for rich ppl. When leveling your first char, you pretty much to have to go after WBs/firemobs after Launchers because rares are more important than xp at this point.
    Regants works well as "most xp" place at the high costs of no loot and huge time investment to just run there (and after you die).

  11. #26
    Registered User Agent L's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divide View Post
    The wastes should only be viable leveling for /20 and above. That said, traversing the wastes should be /2 friendly. The wastes should be dangerous, but there should be some sense and logic to it. The pathways in a zone should be clear, not because that is the nice thing to do, but because human nature says they should be. No one would spend the time to create a trail if it is plagued with life-threatening, laser shooting, doy buttholes.
    I think it is general problem with doy buttholes, as they make places insanely dangerous for no reward at all. They are not useful for any hunting. I can agree with moving them away from roads and generally reducing their headcount, as with any place that's not used by players as hunting grounds.
    But not with shuffling useful mobs like WBs or firemobs, that we actually need more, not less.

    It's a multiplayer game after all, so taxiing noobs is smth that gives drivers a reason to exist.

  12. #27
    Registered User eNTi's Avatar
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    i think this thread is in dire need of some sweet necro because it's more valid than ever. we probably need a subforum in either brainport and/or bugs with stickies for each zone and have people somehow put info there. needs promotion too.

  13. #28
    freedom for neocron! Torg's Avatar
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    Playing an openworld MMO like neocron isnt limited to raising a single char, but extends to learning game mechanics, terrain qualities, NPC behaviour/scripts, so you'd spend months and years before your own experience, as a player, caps out. Some of us learned how to farm, kite and use different mobs, to the extent of hauling in valuables without ever getting killed. i must admit i learned to love the diversity of NCs zones. some are great to linger at, others are deadly. reworking that fauna should be carried out cautiously, while i'd agree some mobs need better loot.

    besides that i'd love to see aggressors removed from city cellars, so low-mid chars would be moved to the outzone and the grasslands. sadly both grasslands (the south) and swamps (the southwest) are perfect for low-mids, but totally underused. of course different wasteland zones come with different difficulty ratings, from little rats and spiders at the city gates to hoverbots and y soldiers. i agree that doy bots dont make a lot of sense these days and could be removed without being missed. i also would love to see the spawnrate of cyclops at the MB bunker lowered a lot, so people would be encouraged to make use of the vast wasteland and its countless levelling spots. but in the end it comes down to your personal style of playing this game. some people just like to grind exp, others dont. different zones and caves are asking for different playstyles, too, so judging areas from a single point of view seems problematic to me.

    let me give you an example: when raising a new char, i never ever visit any cellars and basements in plaza or viarosso, but head for the industrial area instantly, which is the perfect playground for a 0/2 with a decent, constructed weapon. and after that the outzone, mainsewer, pepper park sewers (the latter being somewhat hard for a noob), then swamps. once my newb char has a TL 40ish weapon, it's warbot farming time, with a few visits to chaos caves for entertainment. hoverbots are even more of an excitement, but dont get you as many techparts per hour as properly farmed warbots. i'd also move from one zone to another while getting more exp, levels and damage per second for more loot in zones with heavyer spwans. droners are a different breed, there's industrial > outzone > el farid, chaos caves and even some regants > point red (another excellent but underused place), more of an indoor sport. but all this is mere matter of taste...

  14. #29
    Registered User eNTi's Avatar
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    i think my main gripe is with the difficulty curve being all over the place and some zones are being a cluster fuck of mobs not being cleared out because they are worthless. the only time those get in your way is when they instagib you after zoning right into them.

    i too like to roam and explore the wastes myself... but i noticed some zones simply being empty filler space... with no interesting features or viable farm spots. maybe that was kks intention when nc launched... to give you the full boring wastes experience which indeed makes the whole map feel a bit larger.

    so i think you are right in that the wastes offer a lot of different experiences but i'm not sure some of those are actually intended and they also do not jell well with me.

  15. #30
    Roger Ramjet Fanboy Number 1 RogerRamjet's Avatar
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    Glad to see I finally got round to making a thread after 3 years

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