Your input on: "zone line whoring"

[aKe`cj]

PvP (specifically not including PvE) should activate a flag on your character, which has a cool down period of Y seconds. If you zone into a safe zone (specifically a safe zone) guards in the zone should react to that PvP flag and shoot you.

Personally, I think this is a really smart approach. Ideally it would involve a little polish on the GUI side of things (maybe something less prominent/intrusive than a buff/bonus indicator, but still visible when looked for).

I like this idea very much, because it does not further cripple the open world flow and freedom that players experience in Neocron.
It makes sense in terms of gameplay and also logically: Someone shooting other people could be dangerous.

Any sorts of gagging and crippling of movement, especially involving invisible walls or "you cannot sync for x seconds" type approaches will do more harm than good, for they impact everyone and draw even more attention to the "sync" that is already in its current form breaking flow when moving around.

One thing I would like to add is that it might be good if only the noweapon AI responds to the PvP-Attacker(!)-Flag.
That way you can still defend your base territory with a home advantage, while clubs and general safezones are less viable for sync whoring.

[William Antrim]

So if it is possible to have a pvp attacker flag would that mean that you can have a pvp defender flag? Could this open up the possibility of receiving some form of bonus for beating your attacker if they try to jump you and you end up killing them? (I realise that this could be exploitable in some situations - financial recompense for example) but it might be nice to reward the defender for fighting back.

[hatmankh]

I think the best thing they could do if a pvp defender flag is possible is to not penalize you if you kill someone that attacked you. No SL or faction hit for self defense. The only way you could exploit it is by running infront of people while they're fighting, trying to get them to shoot you by accident. If you manage that you get to fight them and if you win you won't lose SL, however if we make the pvp defender flag go away if the person doesn't attack you for 10 seconds it becomes much harder to exploit this. If the attacker just hits you once by accident and doesn't try to hit you again you'd have to kill them within 10 seconds, any longer and you would still recieve the regular penalties.

Sorry to go off topic a bit but this idea has been said many times before, we just didn't know if it could be done and if the work is being done on pvp flags anyway for this, then some more good might as well come of it.

[Trivaldi]

The below is my personal opinion and only intended to further the discussion, it's not a indication of intent by the team as a whole.

One thing I would like to add is that it might be good if only the noweapon AI responds to the PvP-Attacker(!)-Flag.
That way you can still defend your base territory with a home advantage, while clubs and general safezones are less viable for sync whoring.

This is something I'd considered going into in my original post but felt it was getting into the realms of TL;DR. I agree, only guards who react to drawn weapons should behave like this. Regular faction guards should stick to simply killing their enemies. This would make raiding (and more importantly defending) locations work correctly, with guards focusing on the right people.

The below is my personal opinion and only intended to further the discussion, it's not a indication of intent by the team as a whole.

[William Antrim]

If you have the capacity to make this work it would revolutionize the way PvP in nc works. Roleplay would go through the roof too. It could be the single best thing about nc.

[nabbl]

As I think that Trivs ideas are very good and guards would make sense in safezones to prevent low hp - evade synching I am still all for blocking zone whoring on Levelareas.

Synching in and out of sewers constantly to evade fire and heal yourself can't be a viable option.

[Trivaldi]

The below is my personal opinion and only intended to further the discussion, it's not a indication of intent by the team as a whole.

I am still all for blocking zone whoring on Levelareas.

Synching in and out of sewers constantly to evade fire and heal yourself can't be a viable option.

While I agree with aKe`cj - that preventing zoning makes the jarring experience of zoning more intrusive on the flow of movement - I still believe the zone entry cool down is the best option in this situation. As I said in my original post this would mean (if they decided to do so) players would have to commit to zoning during PvP, as the rest of the fight would likely occur over that zone line.

The decision of Fight or Flight remains firmly with the player, the only difference being they have to flee through zones and not run around in circles in the same 10 feet of gameworld as they do at the moment. This, for me, is a vital point. We cannot force people to stay in a zone with their back to an invisible wall and die. That is just stupid.

Preventing people from zoning at all (be that to just dungeon, safe or all zone types) is a very bad way to solve the issue. Allowing people to zone but not do so constantly to abuse the mechanic, is probably our best bet to resolve the problem in the current architecture.

The above is my personal opinion and only intended to further the discussion, it's not a indication of intent by the team as a whole.

[Cursed Shadow]

The below is my personal opinion and only intended to further the discussion, it's not a indication of intent by the team as a whole.

This is something I'd considered going into in my original post but felt it was getting into the realms of TL;DR. I agree, only guards who react to drawn weapons should behave like this. Regular faction guards should stick to simply killing their enemies. This would make raiding (and more importantly defending) locations work correctly, with guards focusing on the right people.

The below is my personal opinion and only intended to further the discussion, it's not a indication of intent by the team as a whole.

This raises the scenario:

I am a CA runner, my opponent is a Tsunami runner.
We do battle in PP1, the enemy is low on health and runs into the Tsunami HQ (thus activating his zone-entry cooldown, because he has a PVP flag).
I could follow him, but the Tsunami guards are going to punish me, and I will also get my zone-entry cooldown, preventing me from escape.

I like the RP aspects of this. I was a CA in Pepper Park, of course I'm going to run into people who aren't happy to see me.
If I'm beating someone and they retreat to the safety of their Faction HQ (Fortress) then I should know better than to follow that mouse, into that hole.

This does open up the question as to what we do about inter-faction feuds where two Tsunami Runners can still zone whore along their HQ zoneline and fight, without being penalized by the guards.

I think that could be acceptable, and kind of makes sense from an RP point of view.

Additionally, and this isn't my opinion, but is an additional step that could be taken.
The PVP flag could be aware of all factions that you have attacked during the time in which your PVP Flag activates.
Thus when two Tsunami runners run for refuge within the Tsunami HQ, they are met with force, after all, inter-faction quarrels will not be tolerated in the HQ?

I'd really like to hear peoples views on the above points.

[nabbl]

There are two different kind of synchs anyway:

We have zonelines where you have to actively click to enter a zone.
And we have zonelines where you can just can run through.

Zoneline #1 is predestined for Timers. When you sync into a levelzone you have to commit to that zone for X seconds.
But it would be a gamebreaker to implement the same behaviour for Zoneline #2 as it would feel totally uncomfortable.

Guards in safezones which directly shoot on sight on PvP-flagged players would be awesome.

[aKe`cj]

As I think that Trivs ideas are very good and guards would make sense in safezones to prevent low hp - evade synching I am still all for blocking zone whoring on Levelareas.

Synching in and out of sewers constantly to evade fire and heal yourself can't be a viable option.

I have never really seen this as an issue that needed fixing.

If a player zones into a cave and finds a bunch of crawlers nibbling on his legs when he wakes up on the other side, I would assume it to be a rather frustrating experience if the game was to further cripple his abilities to master that situation. It is not uncommon that a damage dealer will try and clear that entrance, involving the sync in/out of that area to heal up. This is a micro challenge for this player which will keep him busy, entertained and may be a rewarding experience if he manages to stay alive and advance. I really dont see how this has a negative effect on anyone else or on the game balance.

Solo-PvE has been a strong point in NC and that also included the tricky part of soloing dangerous caves/areas without a PPU-bugplutt (and no, I do not refer to or endorse people abusing safespots and the like to solo caves - which is a very different issue imo)

[Cursed Shadow]

I have never really seen this as an issue that needed fixing.

If a player zones into a cave and finds a bunch of crawlers nibbling on his legs when he wakes up on the other side, I would assume it to be a rather frustrating experience if the game was to further cripple his abilities to master that situation. It is not uncommon that a damage dealer will try and clear that entrance, involving the sync in/out of that area to heal up. This is a micro challenge for this player which will keep him busy, entertained and may be a rewarding experience if he manages to stay alive and advance. I really dont see how this has a negative effect on anyone else or on the game balance.

Solo-PvE has been a strong point in NC and that also included the tricky part of soloing dangerous caves/areas without a PPU-bugplutt (and no, I do not refer to or endorse people abusing safespots and the like to solo caves - which is a very different issue imo)

I believe nabbl was referring to people using levelling area synch lines to evade PVP, not PVE.
If the player has a PVP Flag they should either be prevented from entering sewers etc, or should be followable and killable without a loss of soul light or sympathy.

[nabbl]

I believe nabbl was referring to people using levelling area synch lines to evade PVP, not PVE.
If the player has a PVP Flag they should either be prevented from entering sewers etc, or should be followable and killable without a loss of soul light or sympathy.

Thx for clarifying. This is exactly what I meant.

[William Antrim]

I think mob damage should definitely NOT trigger any kind of flag. I guess thats what Ake'cj is worried about. I like the idea of flags though, anything to stop the cowardly twats running.

[aKe`cj]

I think mob damage should definitely NOT trigger any kind of flag. I guess thats what Ake'cj is worried about. I like the idea of flags though, anything to stop the cowardly twats running.

From nabbl's original post it was not clear that any such sync policy would be limited to PvP context only (and more importantly: how so), thus me voicing my concerns.

I agree that this might also a case where it would be useful to have a PvP-Attack-Flag to allow for a more granular ruleset.
Something that has been suggested countless times over the years albeit in a slightly different context: smarter SL rules. (cases that allow players to purposely paint a flag on others, like AoE should be considered though)

[Cursed Shadow]

I think mob damage should definitely NOT trigger any kind of flag. I guess thats what Ake'cj is worried about. I like the idea of flags though, anything to stop the cowardly twats running.

Yeah, that's been discussed already. I'd suggest reading back, if you have the time to, although there have been a good few lengthy posts.

We could do with a recap of all of the ideas proposed thus far really.