1. #31

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    But wouldn't that make zones one-way death traps? Zone in, realize 3 guys camp the sync with AoE, turn around and: Death-by-Waiting...
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  2. #32
    Roger Ramjet Fanboy Number 1 RogerRamjet's Avatar
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    Would there be a way to prevent people zoning into clubs whilst under fire? In an RP sense, if you were the bouncers in a club, you wouldn't let a load of blokes fighting each other into your bar now would you?

  3. #33

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    The below is my personal opinion and only intended to further the discussion, it's not a indication of intent by the team as a whole.
    Quote Originally Posted by RogerRamjet View Post
    Would there be a way to prevent people zoning into clubs whilst under fire? In an RP sense, if you were the bouncers in a club, you wouldn't let a load of blokes fighting each other into your bar now would you?
    As the idea of preventing people zoning for a variety of reasons is a heavy feature in this thread, it is not unreasonable to theorise that the same implementation could prevent zoning into sectors of a certain type.

    The above is my personal opinion and only intended to further the discussion, it's not a indication of intent by the team as a whole.
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  4. #34
    Registered User nabbl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cursed Shadow View Post
    Completely agree.

    I wonder what you think about my suggestion of removing Third Party buffs when you sync into certain types of zones. e.g. PP1 is given a 'War Zone' type or something. Synching into that zone removes all third party buffs. Of course, your PPU friend can follow you in, but you can't multibox with a PPU in a safe zone.
    Hey shadow,

    Actually this is not a bad idea but it wouldn't solve the main problem. PPUs as a whole are strongly overpowered while weapons as a whole make too much damage.

    PPU shields give a bonus of 30% to your resist. Together with foreign PPU buffs a PPU is mandatory in fights because the weapons do too much damage. Take the beretta as an example. Even Tanks drop after a few shots when not shielded.
    You need a PPU so that fights are lasting longer and you get more fun out of the neocron pvp experience.
    The solution for this problem is not to change buff behaviour when synching but to decrease the importancy of the PPU in combat situations.
    If you wouldn't really need a PPU (enhancement is cool but why dual logging when you can have good fun without) you wouldn't bring one.

    I think we have to seperate the PPU issues from the whole thing.
    The discussed problem is constant safezone synching.
    The PPU buffing problem is because of PPUs being too important in PvP.
    Last edited by nabbl; 29-08-13 at 10:54.

  5. #35
    I am BlackMaze SilentEye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerRamjet View Post
    Would there be a way to prevent people zoning into clubs whilst under fire? In an RP sense, if you were the bouncers in a club, you wouldn't let a load of blokes fighting each other into your bar now would you?
    If you zone into a new sector, you start behind the closed door. Opening the closed door to find people there means you can quickly run back through the zone line, as you are already behind the door.

    This would prevent zone line camping.

  6. #36
    Dream Cast Cursed Shadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilentEye View Post
    If you zone into a new sector, you start behind the closed door. Opening the closed door to find people there means you can quickly run back through the zone line, as you are already behind the door.

    This would prevent zone line camping.
    Maybe I'm mistaken, but couldn't zoneline campers just hold said door open. This was the case in Neocron 2.1 when MB was the Zonewhore PVP area. People kept the door open. Some people did die, but infrequently.

  7. #37
    Registered User nabbl's Avatar
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    This thing with the doors.

    Do you know how many safezone sync possibilities we have where you can huddle into a safezone to prevent being killed?

    There are like a hundred.
    And you want to put DOORS on each of them?
    Like in between Plaza 1/Plaza2 sync?
    Or in between DRE HQ ?

    And let's say there are doors. There would be ways to keep the doors open. Or you click on them, run another round and then sync.
    People just would sync earlier which would make the fight last even less long.

  8. #38
    Dream Cast Cursed Shadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nabbl View Post
    This thing with the doors.

    Do you know how many safezone sync possibilities we have where you can huddle into a safezone to prevent being killed?

    There are like a hundred.
    And you want to put DOORS on each of them?
    Like in between Plaza 1/Plaza2 sync?
    Or in between DRE HQ ?

    And let's say there are doors. There would be ways to keep the doors open. Or you click on them, run another round and then sync.
    People just would sync earlier which would make the fight last even less long.
    When this was the case with MB, some people would regulate the doors and if you timed it just right you could shut the doors in someones face, forcing them into a trap.

    If you're one of the people above, or reading this that thinks these doors are a good idea, I would strongly recommend you to take a couple of friends to MB or down into the Gaia Mines where there are doors right in front of the sync lines, and see if you can viably exploit the doors. Pretend to be a runner who is trying to run from one place to another and you come under attack before the door, do the doors open fast enough that you can choose not to PvP and escape the zone?

    If you're gonna put slow opening doors in PvP sectors, I'd bet people will stop running through there altogether, because groups of people will make use of those slow doors to kill people who are harmlessly running through.
    Last edited by Cursed Shadow; 29-08-13 at 12:54.

  9. #39
    Xpertz William Antrim's Avatar
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    So stop people from zoning within a few seconds of being damaged then? Say you take damage - anything except falling damage - and then for the next X seconds you cannot leave the zone? Same with heals possibly? Make it impossible to zone if a 3rd party heal is running I mean. It would allow people to self heal before zoning and it would also allow people to still buff before leaving a zone.

    However a third party heal would imply some form of combat and therefore be ineligible to zone.

    To counter any kind of issue with this could we also have self heals be able to overwrite foreign cast heals of any sort. To prevent griefing I mean. Or possibly have a self cast heal cancel the foreign heal?
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  10. #40
    Dream Cast Cursed Shadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William Antrim View Post
    So stop people from zoning within a few seconds of being damaged then? Say you take damage - anything except falling damage - and then for the next X seconds you cannot leave the zone? Same with heals possibly? Make it impossible to zone if a 3rd party heal is running I mean. It would allow people to self heal before zoning and it would also allow people to still buff before leaving a zone.
    I don't think you have fully considered the implications of this.

    Elaboration below:
    - I could heal my opponent to prevent them from escaping.
    - As a Spy/PE/Monk I can cast Heal Sanctum to prevent opponents Spy (including stealthed runners) from escaping.
    - I could be harmlessly running through and somebody shoots me, your suggestion forces me into a PvP scenario without any option to escape.
    Last edited by Cursed Shadow; 29-08-13 at 13:34.

  11. #41
    Registered User nabbl's Avatar
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    This change should only affect runner which are SHOOTING! (and not getting shot)
    If you get aggressive you should not be able to escape combat by synching after you've got your ass beaten.

    Heals and Buffs have nothing to do with that.

    Keep it simple but effective. The ruleset shouldn't be too complicated. We have to be able to understand them. New runners have to be able to understand them and Alduin has to be able to implement them.

    Getting "Combat-Flagged" when shooting a weapon shouldn't be too hard to do.
    Combining it with a seperate Timer for synching in to a levelzone (Sewer, Cave whatever) whe should be able to prevent zone whoring.

    Decreasing the importancy of the PPU should be a part of the major balancing for Spart shouldn't it?
    I am gonna trust the volunteer guys to do that right, as we had a lot of threads regarding the PPU.

  12. #42
    Dream Cast Cursed Shadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nabbl View Post
    This change should only affect runner which are SHOOTING! (and not getting shot)
    If you get aggressive you should not be able to escape combat by synching after you've got your ass beaten.

    Heals and Buffs have nothing to do with that.

    Keep it simple but effective. The ruleset shouldn't be too complicated. We have to be able to understand them. New runners have to be able to understand them and Alduin has to be able to implement them.

    Getting "Combat-Flagged" when shooting a weapon shouldn't be too hard to do.
    Combining it with a seperate Timer for synching in to a levelzone (Sewer, Cave whatever) whe should be able to prevent zone whoring.

    Decreasing the importancy of the PPU should be a part of the major balancing for Spart shouldn't it?
    I am gonna trust the volunteer guys to do that right, as we had a lot of threads regarding the PPU.
    I've already said I agreed with Triv's opinion, and I am glad that you do too.
    They are not the simplest solutions, but they are effective and I cannot think of many ways to exploit them.

    Rather than make this just an agreement:

    I think people who are 'In PvP' *Flagged* should not be able to GR either. Discuss?

  13. #43
    Registered User nabbl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cursed Shadow View Post
    I think people who are 'In PvP' *Flagged* should not be able to GR either. Discuss?
    Makes sense.

  14. #44

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    The below is my personal opinion and only intended to further the discussion, it's not a indication of intent by the team as a whole.

    As for the doors approach: that does not solve the main problem in my opinion, the problem of switching back and forth between zonelines would still persist. Additionaly, placing doors at each and every inner city zone line would completely break the flow when traveling through the city. Apart from that, it would involve a lot of work placing doors everywhere.

    Let me quote Trivaldi here, because I think he broke the problems down pretty well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trivaldi View Post
    The problem, as we all know, arises when there is a CONSTANT back and forth over a single zone line. I like the quoted suggestion above as it means the combatant has to commit to zoning. If you zone down into a sewer, that's where the next X seconds of the action HAS to happen. If you jump into the next zone, predator is gonna follow prey and that's where it all does down. As long as the cool down is long enough, there would be enough time to get some action in before heading back to the original zone or the next one.

    The second problem though, which the above alone wouldn't solve, is zone whoring with safe zones. Both combatants zone into a neighboring safe zone, then instead of heading straight back to a normal zone they'd have to sit around and share small talk for those X seconds.

    My personal proposal for this would be to add additional behavior to guards, in conjunction with a zone entry cool down.

    PvP (specifically not including PvE) should activate a flag on your character, which has a cool down period of Y seconds. If you zone into a safe zone (specifically a safe zone) guards in the zone should react to that PvP flag and shoot you. If you zone into any other zone type, only the zone entry cool down would be in play, allowing the fighting to continue as normal. This should discourage fights from hugging safe zone zone lines, but does not stop those safe zones being a starting point for inner city PvP. I'm aware being able to hop into the action is a very important issue we must consider for inner city PvP.
    The first problem would be solved by a sync cooldown upon entering a zone. I like the idea very much and usually, in case you travel through the city, it would not break your "flow".

    The second problem however I would tackle differently: don't allow the combatants to enter safe zones as long as they are flagged for pvp. Instead they should be bounced back by an invisible wall. The pvp flag should only be triggered in case you use aggressive stuff or in case you heal/buff someone who is flagged for pvp.

    The above is my personal opinion and only intended to further the discussion, it's not a indication of intent by the team as a whole.
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  15. #45
    Bitter Old Fart Dribble Joy's Avatar
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    I'm probably with nabbl on this. Being damaged, under 3rd party effects and similar properties out of your control will only bring up possibilities for abuse by other players. The old problem of n00b buffing is brought back to mind.

    A 5 second cool-down (or whatever time we find to be appropriate) from making an aggressive action (Ie. firing a weapon, entering stealth) to before you can enter a safezone seems like the simplest and least abusable solution until there comes a time such that we can remove zoning completely.

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