1. #1
    Veteran Castr0's Avatar
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    Default PPU & APUs - 2 birds 1 stone

    I think most of the people think that PPUs are annoying in fights. They are (really) hard to kill. They make the fight unfair on 2v2 and so on...
    I have thought of something, but first I just want to remember that I play a PPU a lot and I like it.

    SO ...

    My simple idea is the next :
    - nerf PPU shields (medium nerf for selfcast / small nerf for external cast)
    - give the antibuff to APU again


    This is what the result will end up to (in my thought) :
    - PPUs will be killable by a team of attacker with no debuffer <-- current state is a PPU can survive to an OP team until next GR if he knows what he is doing (I often die to an OP team but last night, 3 PPU & 5 attackers were on me alone, I first clipped in the OP to get my life to 100% and then run to the GR and GRed out)
    - PPU will have a smaller place in OPs teams (the ratio PPU per attacker will lower a bit ) (the number of attacker per PPU will grow )
    - APUs would be used more than they are atm (and not be the kamikaze class it is right now)
    - Debuff will be less needed to kill a target

    Other consequenses :
    - APUs will not be as needed in fight as people imagine since shields will get a little nerf (but APUs are not mean to be more needed than other classes)
    - PvE could become harder : the shield nerf should only happen in PvP if possible

    There are more consequences to this but it's a start.

    What do you think of it ?
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    PPU shield nerf is a good thing, the values would need to be carefully worked out though, nerf the self buffs to much and the ppu will be way to vunerable, they are a bit tough right now but it should take in my opinion at least say 3 people to kill 1.

    Buffs on other people definitely need more of a nerf, right now it is pretty much ppus who decided a fight, I gave this as an example in another thread but in the current climate if you have a team of 2 damage dealers and a team of 1 ppu and 1 damage dealer on average the ppu team will win. What should happen in a perfect world is in this example either team can win. As I have said before (and I think you agree) a ppu should be worth 1 person, not 3 or more like they seem to be right now.

    As for the apu getting the anti buff, the problem with that is the apu already dies very quickly, give them the anti buff along with the nerf to ppu shields and they will be the first target and die in seconds. This wouldn't be so bad I guess if you could kill ppus without the anti buff but just giving them the anti buff wouldn't help the class, it would give them a use but not a way to survive long enough to make use of it. And if the only class with the anti buff dies to quickly then there will be no anti buffing so things will still be quite bad when it comes to ppu buffs.

    As for making pve harder they could make it so the nerf only affects player attacks if thats possible.
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  3. #3
    Huckle Beare' Doc Holliday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIABLO666 View Post
    PPU shield nerf is a good thing, the values would need to be carefully worked out though, nerf the self buffs to much and the ppu will be way to vunerable, they are a bit tough right now but it should take in my opinion at least say 3 people to kill 1.

    Buffs on other people definitely need more of a nerf, right now it is pretty much ppus who decided a fight, I gave this as an example in another thread but in the current climate if you have a team of 2 damage dealers and a team of 1 ppu and 1 damage dealer on average the ppu team will win. What should happen in a perfect world is in this example either team can win. As I have said before (and I think you agree) a ppu should be worth 1 person, not 3 or more like they seem to be right now.

    As for the apu getting the anti buff, the problem with that is the apu already dies very quickly, give them the anti buff along with the nerf to ppu shields and they will be the first target and die in seconds. This wouldn't be so bad I guess if you could kill ppus without the anti buff but just giving them the anti buff wouldn't help the class, it would give them a use but not a way to survive long enough to make use of it. And if the only class with the anti buff dies to quickly then there will be no anti buffing so things will still be quite bad when it comes to ppu buffs.

    As for making pve harder they could make it so the nerf only affects player attacks if thats possible.
    Try and think of the APU as a seperate issue. Buff him and fix him up so he has a fighting chance and i agree with you in the entirety of your post.

    Ps. I prefer tweaking as opposed to nerfing it sounds nicer. Less of a reliance on a ppu being the game changer in pvp is a definite win. Maybe mob damage could be reduced accross the board to counter act the shields "tweak"

    I dont wanna cross topics but its one simple idea to solve the issue without ruining the ppu.
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    I would definitely be up for the apu getting the anti buff back but he needs to be fixed first so he doesn't just fall on his face the second a fight begins. Just giving apu the anti buff wont make them viable they need a proper big fix for that, the anti buff will help give them a purpose though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIABLO666 View Post
    give them a purpose
    While I'm all for rebalancing the APU and PPU, this is problematic.
    If the anti-buff is 'needed', then APUs become a requirement for any PvP involving PPUs. If APUs are balanced and have the anti-buff on top, why would you bring another class? If you lower the power of APUs so it balances out in team PvP, what about when there isn't a PPU present?
    Also if you are going to further reduce the power of the PPUs (and their self cast powers are probably too high) then I'd prefer it that they retained the anti-buff. Longer spell durations would help them use it better.

    The other option is to give every combat class a debuff power, but then what's the point in an anti-buff, it's just an extra unnecessary layer that you have to use to be competitive.

  6. #6
    für einen freien Geist Deus Ex Machina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIABLO666 View Post
    [...] I gave this as an example in another thread but in the current climate if you have a team of 2 damage dealers and a team of 1 ppu and 1 damage dealer on average the ppu team will win. What should happen in a perfect world is in this example either team can win.
    In a perfect world the 2 Damage Dealers would have the better chance to win. Because that would mean, that a PPU cannot work his full powers when only 1 "Target" friendly for him is around. If PPU and Damage Dealer are equal to two Damage Dealers, that means PPU and Two Damage Dealers are certainly better than three damage Dealers. One on one support of PPUs should be a disadvantage versus a team where a PPU can support more than one person.
    Of course thats just disagreement on the power difference, where one would like to set the line. I wholeheartedly agree that it needs a balancing if a PPU plus Damage Dealer are stronger than two Damage Dealers at the moment (of course there is always the question at what skill level the balancing should be done, but thata another question).
    In my thoughts, a PPU should be able to make two damage dealers equal to three damage dealers (means a Team of one PPU and two damage dealers is equal to three damage dealers (of equal skill level of course)
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    If you nerf the ppu too hard noone will fight any more. Noone fights without a ppu any more as it is unless it is via the random wastelands PvP of old. This is rare as rocking horse shit however. Nobody in nc wants to die any more everyone is scared of losing stuff. I do not want to see the ppu nerfed into the floor just because some players cannot bear to even take a hit or leave a safezone without six ppus backing them up.

    The ppu already gives up all of his offensive capability to cope with his uber defence. with the amount of rares your average ppu has to carry around having poor defence will mean that they won't go anywhere any more where they might risk losing something. This could be seen as a good thing I guess in some eyes but truthfully I think with the PvP community the way it is you would just find fights happen even less outside of op fights.
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    Registered User eNTi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William Antrim View Post
    If you nerf the ppu too hard noone will fight any more. Noone fights without a ppu any more as it is unless it is via the random wastelands PvP of old. This is rare as rocking horse shit however. Nobody in nc wants to die any more everyone is scared of losing stuff. I do not want to see the ppu nerfed into the floor just because some players cannot bear to even take a hit or leave a safezone without six ppus backing them up.

    The ppu already gives up all of his offensive capability to cope with his uber defence. with the amount of rares your average ppu has to carry around having poor defence will mean that they won't go anywhere any more where they might risk losing something. This could be seen as a good thing I guess in some eyes but truthfully I think with the PvP community the way it is you would just find fights happen even less outside of op fights.
    so what you are saying is that nerfing the ppu to a level where he's not competitively op any more is impossible without making players stop using him altogether?

    so why not just merge apu and ppu and balance psi around all classes, like i'm chanting for weeks now? no more ppu double log pve and pvp whoring. no more hour long op fights where the side with the most ppus win. no more W I M P ocron. TRASH THE FUCKING PPU ALREADY!!!
    Last edited by eNTi; 17-06-13 at 09:26.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eNTi View Post
    so why not just merge apu and ppu and balance psi around all classes, like i'm chanting for weeks now? no more ppu double log pve and pvp whoring. no more hour long op fights where the side with the most ppus win. no more W I M P ocron. TRASH THE FUCKING PPU ALREADY!!!
    Because hour long opfights are more fun than 5min opfights..

    I like how the PPU is so damn hard to kill - as it has already been mentioned, it balances his complete lack of damage a bit.
    However, I do think that foreign buffs should be slightly nerfed.
    (This comes from someone who does not have a PPU)
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    Registered User Kane Gregory's Avatar
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    I think ppus are fine as they are. I wouldn't agree to nerf them.

    Think about the op-fight situation without ppus:
    The team with UG would have a tremendous advantage!
    OP-Fights would take only a very few minutes followed by a long time of repair/implant/SI-drop.
    That's not proportionable!

    What Gastr0 said about the Anti-Buffs is right. They belongs to the APU!
    But: If you would nerf the shields regardless of foreign- or self-cast you can throw Antis in the garbage! (No one would use them!)

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    Neocron Veteran Ascension's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dropout View Post
    Because hour long opfights are more fun than 5min opfights..

    I like how the PPU is so damn hard to kill - as it has already been mentioned, it balances his complete lack of damage a bit.
    However, I do think that foreign buffs should be slightly nerfed.
    (This comes from someone who does not have a PPU)
    If foreign buffs are to be nerfed, then APU's need fixing, its already hard enough to stay alive as an APU in an OP war situation.

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    Registered User eNTi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascension View Post
    If foreign buffs are to be nerfed, then APU's need fixing, its already hard enough to stay alive as an APU in an OP war situation.
    if low+med shields were more potent and high shields less potent as well as antis available in med ppu so that maybe even spies could use (some of) them we all had a lot more options to work with. maybe damage would need to be nerfed across the board. for mobs as well as for high tl attacks.

    ug is crap in fights anyway. just make it accessible to everyone when the first (or so) hack has gone through. you can always post some faction guards or reprogrammed cop bots inside the op.

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    The idea isn't to nerf them to uselessness its to make them balance, right now a ppu is worth at least 2 perhaps 3-4 people which had led to fights currently being decided by who has the best ppu, the fighters are for the most part redundant in terms of deciding the outcome, as long as you have a person to do damage its fine.

    All I and others are asking is that they are worth 1 person in terms of what they add to a fight, they would still buff people and heal and rez meaning fights would last but it wouldn't be to the point that if 1 side has 2 ppus and the other has 1 then the 2 ppu side has won by virtue of having the more of 1 class. If a team has more tanks spys or pes than another team it wouldn't mean they have won, they team with the most ppus right now is always going to win really.

    As for the ppu defending themselves unless I'm mistaken the OP is not asking for a huge nerf just one so that they can't survive an entire OP team attacking them. I'm sure we can all agree ppus being able to survive THAT is ridiculous, they should be able to survive 2 or 3 people (perhaps 4 if they are good) attacking them but a whole OP team is ridiculous.
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    There's some potential to synchronise effects of psi shield to how 'channeled in' characters are with their 'inner psi'

    i.e make them somehow scalable with Psi level - lets call current level 20% effective

    no change when buffing spies
    slight buff for PEs but their dmg output is so low it makes sense
    big buff for APUs maybe not 5x more effective but the numbers are just for arguments sake
    little defense nerf for tanks but they have alot better armor and CON to compensate

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    Veteran Castr0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIABLO666 View Post
    The idea isn't to nerf them to uselessness its to make them balance, right now a ppu is worth at least 2 perhaps 3-4 people which had led to fights currently being decided by who has the best ppu, the fighters are for the most part redundant in terms of deciding the outcome, as long as you have a person to do damage its fine.

    All I and others are asking is that they are worth 1 person in terms of what they add to a fight, they would still buff people and heal and rez meaning fights would last but it wouldn't be to the point that if 1 side has 2 ppus and the other has 1 then the 2 ppu side has won by virtue of having the more of 1 class. If a team has more tanks spys or pes than another team it wouldn't mean they have won, they team with the most ppus right now is always going to win really.

    As for the ppu defending themselves unless I'm mistaken the OP is not asking for a huge nerf just one so that they can't survive an entire OP team attacking them. I'm sure we can all agree ppus being able to survive THAT is ridiculous, they should be able to survive 2 or 3 people (perhaps 4 if they are good) attacking them but a whole OP team is ridiculous.
    That's is what I mean and what the post is about.
    My 2 ideas had a goal : the one pointed out by Diablo.

    I'll add that these idea won't fix APU. But they may give them a little boost.
    APU will have to be fix, more things have to be done.
    Last edited by Castr0; 17-06-13 at 18:29.
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