Low Weapon and Skill caps please

[William Antrim]

Currently we have almost uncappable weapons. If you sacrifice all of your points in other stuff and use the right implants and drugs some weapons can have capped aiming but no weapon can have capped damage.

In NC1 we had 176% damage cap and aiming cap was 250% if memory serves correct.

Currently everyone goes for the highest TL weapon or the most effective one which is invariably woc. Everyone pours all of their points into this weapon skill and does their best to make do. Noone has any spare points for anything else. This is bad imo.


We should LOWER our weapon caps drastically. All guns should cap at 100% aiming and damage. Possibly it could be argued for 120% (this is on the information tab - not the quality of the gun) to allow for the precision marksman who can really push that extra bit of bang for his buck.

The required PC/HC/RC etc for this should be low. For the record I think that PSU (under Intelligence) should be the primary requisite for monk aiming too, why should they be any different if they all have reticles now.

Why? Diversity. Give people the option to have a SECONDARY skill.

Poking and repair were to my knowledge designed to be secondary skills. I remember in the original manual that it said that Tanks for example could afford to spec a little repair to repair their own weapons in the field - just like modern day soldiers can do.

Why not give the tanks this option?

Spies and PE's could go back to driving some cool vehicles around and pking in them.

I had great fun last night with a friend pking in a rhino. We got 9 techs and 3 ganks. The ganks were more fun than the techs till the opposition brought a ppu and 2 tanks and we had to skin out but I digress. That was my inspiration for the thread however.

I realise the initial problem with this is with more DEX points most classes will opt for more speed but if there was a hard runspeed cap (which would need to happen to make this idea survive first contact I admit) then that would open up the rest of the game to these diversifications. We could have repairing and recycling PEs, Spies and Tanks even. We could have Driver PE's actual proper ones that actually didn't just pick the class for the quad!


Digressing a tiny bit but the same could be applied to tradeskilling. 150 Research or Cst could cap everything and be the best chance to not fail research and be able to construct 5 slot weapons. Admittedly it might be beneficial to apply the APU/PPU malus mechanic (for those who dont know how that works the more points you spend in one the weaker the other becomes) so that we do not have these hybrid tradeskill gods. Instead of that these guys can go out into the wastelands and level with their mates while id'ing the rares the other dude just hacked.

Researchers and constructors would no longer need to level with drones. They would be able to diversify into other stuff.

These values would need to be looked at of course and discussed, dissected and rehashed a lot. However it MIGHT see the return of Low tech PEs which would be great if they could be balanced. It would probably throw up some interesting Monk Tradeskillers who have a proper profession to go along with their main skill but mostly I think this would benefit the gun users due to the way monks work in comparison to everyone else.

The biggest single change I can see about NC now is the lack of diversity. It really does kill the game. I campaigned hard to keep it in nc1 but with the 2.2 changes I think it is now a good time to dust off that particular set of ideas and throw it out for you guys to discuss.

I would love to see more people out and about in the wastelands instead of idling in their hq doing boring construction jobs and to find someone who can repair your shit for you while youre out levelling would just be uber.

[Load_HeavyLoad]

I agree for the most part - when it comes to CST and RES 150 to cap all non-rares is fine but i think there should be dedicated CST and RES for them because I think there should be some form of dedicated tradeskillers.

I also think that capping weapons should be easier because it does add a bit more skill into the game because instead of as William said going for the highest dmg/tl weapons it allows setups and aiming/skill to play a bigger role

Good Post - if only all posters in the Brainport construed their points and ideas this way

[DIABLO666]

I would be down for this as long as the cap for weapons was one you could reach only by pouring all your points into the combat skill instead of a very easy to reach amount, if you make it easy as hell to cap weapons it will make a lot of current setups pointless. For example I'm currently using a setup which sacrifices resist and the such for higher hc to get more damage, aiming, freq and the such, if the cap was lowered having such a large amount would be pointless.

And of course lets not forget that certain classes would benefit more from this, that being the dex classes. As a tank the only thing I need to put str into really is hc, yes I need a bit of transport and resist pierce but I don't need a huge excess of points really, sure some extra pierce might be nice but it wouldn't be that amazing. As for monks we could do with a monk to really say if this would help them or not but from what I remember a huge excess of points wouldn't really help them that much either really apart from getting a mega huge psi pool. Dex classes however would points spare for lots of stuff like agility and tech combat.

The main thing I would like to see from weapons is the higher level weapons being harder to cap and the lower ones being easier, this way you can have a setup which uses a high tl gun but you need to sacrifice points in other skills to make it better, or people can use a lower tl gun which is easier to cap and thus gives them extra points for other places. Or of course you could use a high tl gun and have balanced stats like people using a low gun but you wouldn't do more damage cos you didn't spec enough points to cap the gun.

I like the idea of diversity in skills but you need to consider how certain classes can benefit from this, and as for lowering the cap for trade skills that could annoy a lot of higher level traders and would sort of ruin the variety of traders, right now people specialise in 2 skills generally, this change could lead to people specialising in every trade skill with ease which in my opinion wouldn't be a good thing as everybody could have 1 character that does everything and not need other traders (except pokers).

[Deus Ex Machina]

I had similar thoughts recently, and I fully agree. At first I thought the idea of a soft cap is nice, but a hard cap really is better for allowing diversity.
Mostly I read the whole starting post, and I think I can agree on all points.
I'd love to see combat tradeskillers around again.

[Neallys]

We are undeniably going back to a NC1 system where weapon could be capped with 170~ RC/PC in the skill I think. ANd this make sense, because in NC1, people were runing around with Judge/termi/Exec/Slasher PE and were effective. The higher TL the weapon was, the more chips you had to put in thus reducing your resists, it made sense. Now If you want to somewhat hurt people with these weapons, you gotta have 270 in RC/PC, sacrificing a huge amount of resists and it doesn't make sense anyway.


A similar system would be nice, I was discussing this yesterday with a fellow player.

[RogerRamjet]

The pre 2.2 formulas and caps worked for more than the current incarnation. I don't know whether devs want to revert to that system, but i'd be for it.

[Dribble Joy]

And I'll be the one to disagree.

NC2 showed why caps can destroy balance. Even the highest TL weapons could be capped with ease, leading to the situation where weapon choice was even more restricted than it is now; Higher TL = better.
In NC1 I only capped my weapon through the use of a kami. The original mechanics created by the devs had been (barely) brought into question by the introduction of content that the original devs had not envisaged when they were created.

Even if you make those caps hard to attain, the same problem will exist. There will be a set amount of skilling required and thus a set amount of 'free' points left over to use.
My PE currently has ~50 points spent in Hack, The Dmg reduction is minimal, probably around 1% (if that), but it is a choice I make. I could spec all my INT points into WEP for that little bit extra, but I choose not to. If you introduce caps, then you start removing that choice.
I also disagree with the argument that a lack of caps 'forces' you to fully spec in one area. It assumes that the trade in one area is worth more than that in another. This of course brings into question the performance/skilling gradient (which is out of whack) but also other things like the issues raised by multi-slot servers and the impact on runner life by non-PvP elements.

[DIABLO666]

And I'll be the one to disagree.

NC2 showed why caps can destroy balance. Even the highest TL weapons could be capped with ease, leading to the situation where weapon choice was even more restricted than it is now; Higher TL = better.
In NC1 I only capped my weapon through the use of a kami. The original mechanics created by the devs had been (barely) brought into question by the introduction of content that the original devs had not envisaged when they were created.

Even if you make those caps hard to attain, the same problem will exist. There will be a set amount of skilling required and thus a set amount of 'free' points left over to use.
My PE currently has ~50 points spent in Hack, The Dmg reduction is minimal, probably around 1% (if that), but it is a choice I make. I could spec all my INT points into WEP for that little bit extra, but I choose not to. If you introduce caps, then you start removing that choice.
I also disagree with the argument that a lack of caps 'forces' you to fully spec in one area. It assumes that the trade in one area is worth more than that in another. This of course brings into question the performance/skilling gradient (which is out of whack) but also other things like the issues raised by multi-slot servers and the impact on runner life by non-PvP elements.

This is sort of what I was saying ish... though I think I back tracked and made it more confusing =p. As you said people aren't forced to do 1 role right now.. but you have to spec a lot into a role if you want to do it really well which is how it should be, you shouldn't be able to master a large number of skills. Guns are the same if you want the most damage and aiming you should need to spec a lot into your main skills for it not just be given it for free, as I said thats what I'm doing on my tank now sacrificing defence to get more hc for higher stats, or I could choose a setup with less hc and more resists. If I capped hc easily the choice is gone as I get capped stats with ease so just go for the resist build instead.

As I was trying to say the better idea in my view for weapons at least would be to actually make it harder to cap some guns but easier to cap others, this way lower tl guns become viable as you can cap them easily but higher tl guns are also viable as they are harder to cap so you need to sacrifice stuff to cap em but you get more out of them if you do. This system you suggest would basically mean everybody is using the highest tl weapon cos its easy as hell to cap while having spare points. Wheres the fun in that?

[J@ck on Cr@ck]

I agree with most of what william said, but I dont like the idea that tradeskillers can do both high end research and construction at the same time. I would love to see some more diversity and freedom in secondary skills.

a hard cap really is better for allowing diversity.

Good point!

[RogerRamjet]

I have to politely disagree with the above. As an example, I had about 6 or 7 PEs (2 or 3 in FETISH on Terra) across the servers at the end of 06, pre2.2 (all non-WoC), ranging from a Tsu Rifle PE, Pain Easer PE, Healing Light PE, Judge PE, Executioner/Slasher PE, Paw of Tiger PE and a Tangent Plasma Cannon PE.

Each build was an enormous exercise in trading something off (and I put the hours in in Neofrag to test them), the balancing point probably being the Judge PE set up I had. The variation in my setups and those of my FETISH clan mates, despite knowing caps and flip points on resists, revolved around different scenarios of pvp, different play styles, aesthetics, and knowing we could achieve these and be viable without any sort of PPU support. 2.2 with its uncappable weapons/resists/etc and the removal of self buffs (amongst other things) in my eyes has led to the ethic of "well, I might as well have buffs" to squeeze out whatever remaining % people can for pvp. It hasn't led to increased/potential variation at all, if anything the pvp scene is the most homogeneous it's ever been, and no one can genuinely argue with that.

I'm not saying the old system was perfect, or I want a reversion, but it made a lot more pvp classes a lot more viable than the current set up we have.

[DIABLO666]

I have to politely disagree with the above. As an example, I had about 6 or 7 PEs (2 or 3 in FETISH on Terra) across the servers at the end of 06, pre2.2 (all non-WoC), ranging from a Tsu Rifle PE, Pain Easer PE, Healing Light PE, Judge PE, Executioner/Slasher PE, Paw of Tiger PE and a Tangent Plasma Cannon PE.

Each build was an enormous exercise in trading something off (and I put the hours in in Neofrag to test them), the balancing point probably being the Judge PE set up I had. The variation in my setups and those of my FETISH clan mates, despite knowing caps and flip points on resists, revolved around different scenarios of pvp, different play styles, aesthetics, and knowing we could achieve these and be viable without any sort of PPU support. 2.2 with its uncappable weapons/resists/etc and the removal of self buffs (amongst other things) in my eyes has led to the ethic of "well, I might as well have buffs" to squeeze out whatever remaining % people can for pvp. It hasn't led to increased/potential variation at all, if anything the pvp scene is the most homogeneous it's ever been, and no one can genuinely argue with that.

I'm not saying the old system was perfect, or I want a reversion, but it made a lot more pvp classes a lot more viable than the current set up we have.

I'd more say it hasn't led to it cos it hasn't been done properly, the cap is to high and other guns don't seem to be easier to cap or at least aren't as good as they should be for how much closer to get you can get.

The sort of thing I'm looking for is for example if somebody chooses a wyatt build they could easily cap it cos its a low tl gun, this means they have spare points for resists speed or other things. If people were to use say the freeman it would be hard to cap so you would need to put a lot of points into damage skills as such sacrificing other things like speed and resist but you would obviously get more power from your gun. And of course if you really want you could just have a similar setup to the wyatt guy and do similar damage as while your gun is better having less points spend in combat skills means you don't cap it.

This would make people use a variety of builds I think as it would make all guns viable, they would more be for different styles, for example the lower tech guns would generally be for people who want higher resist builds while higher tl guns are for people who are confident in their ability to avoid damage and want to hit hard. It would require a lot of work and it would be nice for a high damage build option for lower level guns but sadly I don't have a clue how you could do that while having all the rest of it.

[Doc Holliday]

I would be down for this as long as the cap for weapons was one you could reach only by pouring all your points into the combat skill

This defeats exactly what William is trying to say. Imposing a hard cap frees up points for OTHER stats. you have contradicted yourself by saying you agree but then misinterpreting what you are agreeing with.

You remember NC1 when you would have constructors etc using pistols to level up etc right? before the enforced specialization of nc2. thats what hes aiming at. Something closer to that than how it is now where everyone must be a pure what ever to be good at what they do.

i think this is a good thing. the rest of this thread is far too wordy for me to want to read right now. no offense to the posters.

[William Antrim]

Jack on crack.

To avoid the issue highlighted I want to impose a malus like the apu ppu one on CST and RES over level 30. This stops hybrids. It is in the initial post.

[RogerRamjet]

This would make people use a variety of builds I think as it would make all guns viable, they would more be for different styles, for example the lower tech guns would generally be for people who want higher resist builds while higher tl guns are for people who are confident in their ability to avoid damage and want to hit hard. It would require a lot of work and it would be nice for a high damage build option for lower level guns but sadly I don't have a clue how you could do that while having all the rest of it.

This what should happen, but it doesn't. The AK and Dissie used to be OP so people aimed for those, beam and ray weapons don't work, lower level rares are shit and psi for anything but PPUs has been ruined so PEs are useless (you may as well be a a spy and use AK).